Mr. Paine.

That wasn't much of a conversation. It happened in an afternoon. I am afraid I can't remember anything more about it. I remember only the thoughts, I sort of smiled to myself when he said this.

Mr. Liebeler.

Why?

Mr. Paine.

Thinking of the kind of person--what it said about him so it suggested to me he wanted to be a party to something or a part of a group that had objectives. In other words, he wanted to be an activist of some sort. And he wasn't aware of--it seemed somewhat childish to me.

Mr. Liebeler.

Why do you say that?

Mr. Paine.

Well it would have seemed more competent to have more explicit communication clandestine, if it would have to be clandestine. And if you had more explicit communication of some sort you wouldn't mention receiving your directions from the newspaper, reading between the lines of a newspaper.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did he ever say anything to you that would indicate that he had ever received more explicit instructions from anybody regarding any subject in the political field?

Mr. Paine.

No; he didn't, and it was these various--there weren't many occasions. Another time at the ACLU, in this talk that he had with Frank or this argument that he had with Frank and a third person on the way home he asked me if I knew that third person and whether I thought he was a Communist, and he said he thought he was a Communist, Lee thought the third person was a Communist, and he gave me some reason and a receptivity to some words spoken about Castro. And I thought that was such a feeble reason or explanation of a Communist that again I thought to myself he must be out of it if that is the way he has to find his fellow travelers.

Mr. Liebeler.

When you use the expression "out of it" do you mean to convey the idea that he was not closely associated with any Communist group or he just had a very tenuous grip on reality?

Mr. Paine.

No; I mean in this case he was not associated with a cell or a Communist group. This I didn't know. That was the impression and thought in the back of my mind from the things he had said.

Mr. Liebeler.

When he made this remark about the person at the ACLU meeting being a Communist how was the remark made, did he seem to indicate to you some desire to reach out and to know this person, to meet this person, to associate with him or was he just making a general remark or were you thinking in the perjurative sense, how did he speak, what impression did he give you?

Mr. Paine.

I had the impression that he hoped he would be a Communist and he would like to meet him again, yes.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did you notice the person. this third person?

Mr. Paine.

No; I didn't.

Mr. Liebeler.

Was he an elderly person?

Mr. Paine.

Yes.

Mr. Liebeler.

Do you know a Reverend Helligas?

Mr. Paine.

Yes.

Mr. Liebeler.

This was not him?

Mr. Paine.

No.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did you observe Oswald speak with Reverend Helligas that evening at the meeting?

Mr. Paine.

No; I didn't.

Mr. Liebeler.

Have you ever learned the identity of this third person?

Mr. Paine.

No; I haven't.

Mr. Liebeler.

Have you ever seen him again?

Mr. Paine.

I think that is the last ACLU meeting I have been to. They convene very infrequently.

Mr. Liebeler.

By that do you mean you have not seen this person again?

Mr. Paine.

Therefore, I have not seen him again. I expect he is a registered member of the ACLU. I had the impression he was an ACLU member. He is rather softspoken, a quiet man.

Mr. Liebeler.

Would you recognize him again if you saw him?

Mr. Paine.

I probably would.