Mr. Hawkins.

Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Ball.

With what--with his fist?

Mr. Hawkins.

It appeared he struck him with his fist.

Mr. Ball.

Which one?

Mr. Hawkins.

Right fist.

Mr. Ball.

What was Officer McDonald doing at that time?

Mr. Hawkins.

I remember seeing him standing beside Oswald, and when I arrived where they were, both of them were down in the seat--Oswald and McDonald had both fallen down into the seat, and very shortly after I got there, a gun was pulled, came out of Oswald's belt and was pulled across to their right, or toward the south aisle of the theatre.
Officer McDonald grabbed the pistol, and the best I can remember, Sergeant Hill, who had gotten there, said, "I've got the gun," and he took the gun and we handcuffed Oswald.

Mr. Ball.

Did you hear any snap of the hammer?

Mr. Hawkins.

I heard something that I thought was a snap. I didn't know whether it was a snap of a pistol--I later learned that they were sure it was.
I didn't know whether it was a snap of the gun or whether it was in the seats someone making the noise.

Mr. Ball.

There was some noise you heard?

Mr. Hawkins.

Yes, sir; there was.

Mr. Ball.

You couldn't identify it?

Mr. Hawkins.

No, sir; I don't think so---I don't think I could say for sure.

Mr. Ball.

Did you see anybody strike Oswald with his fist?

Mr. Hawkins.

No, sir; I didn't see anyone strike him. They had, as I said, they had gotten back into the seat and Officer Hutson had grabbed Oswald from behind and Officer Walker had him by the left arm and the gun went across and McDonald had grabbed him by the right hand and Sergeant Hill grabbed the gun and at this time I handcuffed his left hand. There were several officers shortly after that arrived at the scene.

Mr. Ball.

Did you see any officer there with a shotgun?

Mr. Hawkins.

I don't recall any officers. I know I had seen some officers with a shotgun, but I don't recall whether any officer had one, but it is possible that they did have.

Mr. Ball.

The men who were struggling with Oswald were first, McDonald, and you----

Mr. Hawkins.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball.

And who was the other man?

Mr. Hawkins.

Now, Officer Hutson had gotten behind Oswald prior to the time I got there and then also Walker was on the left-hand side--on the left hand.

Mr. Ball.

Oswald's left?

Mr. Hawkins.

Oswald's left.

Mr. Ball.

And who was on the right?

Mr. Hawkins.

McDonald.

Mr. Ball.

And what about Bob Carroll, did he come in there too?

Mr. Hawkins.

Well, I'm sure Bob was in there. I couldn't say where he was exactly or--I do remember Sergeant Hill being there, and I believe he said, "I've got the gun." I think I read an account of where Bob Carroll may have had the gun, but I was under the impression it was Sergeant Hill. I'm sure Bob was there, but I don't know exactly--it was all happening pretty fast.

Mr. Ball.

Did any one of these men you have described around Oswald have a shotgun?

Mr. Hawkins.

I don't believe any of them--at the time that they were standing directly around Oswald, had a shotgun--I may be mistaken.

Mr. Ball.

A witness testified yesterday that while they were struggling with Oswald, a police officer took a gun and took it by the muzzle and struck Oswald in the back with the rifle butt; did you see anything like that?

Mr. Hawkins.

No; I did not. I couldn't say that it did not happen. I didn't see from the back, but I do know that Officer Hutson was standing behind him and had grabbed him around the neck and I'm sure that he did not have a gun.

Mr. Ball.

Hutson did not have a shotgun?