Mr. Sims.

Yes, sir

Mr. Ball.

And where did you take him?

Mr. Sims.

Well, we walked out of our door and turned left, and you go a few feet and go to the elevator--where the waiting room for the elevator is--it's a locked door, and then go from there to the basement of the city hall and then go from the elevator there to the holdover room next to the stage, the showup stage.

Mr. Ball.

You have a special place for showups, do you?

Mr. Sims.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball.

And would you describe it?

Mr. Sims.

Yes, sir; in front of it is the detail room, where the officers get their assignments every day before they go out in the squads, and the platform is a raised platform--I guess it's 2 or 2 1/2 or 3 feet raised above the floor and it has got a black--some type of a cloth screen with floodlights at the top and down at the bottom.

Mr. Ball.

Is it a cloth screen between the----

Mr. Sims.

Between the suspects and the witnesses we have.

Mr. Ball.

The stage and the outer part of the room?

Mr. Sims.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball.

Are there seats in the room?

Mr. Sims.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball.

What kind of seats?

Mr. Sims.

They are just a regular chair--with a long desk, something like this here.

Mr. Ball.

You say you took Oswald down with a couple of the officers?

Mr. Sims.

Yes, sir; two of the officers went with us--Perry and Clark.

Mr. Ball.

And they are Dallas Police Department officers, are they?

Mr. Sims.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball.

And why did you have to have them come down with you?

Mr. Sims.

I don't know why they did.

Mr. Ball.

Who instructed them to go with you?

Mr. Sims.

I don't know that. I know they said they were there for the showup so we went with them.

Mr. Ball.

During the showup, were they part of the showup?

Mr. Sims.

Yes; they participated in the showup; they were with Oswald and this jailer.

Mr. Ball.

How were they dressed?

Mr. Sims.

I believe one of them pulled his coat off, and I don't know how they were dressed, but one of them pulled his coat off I know.

Mr. Ball.

Were they handcuffed?

Mr. Sims.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball.

They were handcuffed together?

Mr. Sims.

Yes; all of them was handcuffed.

Mr. Ball.

Now, there were four of them altogether?

Mr. Sims.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball.

In the showup?

Mr. Sims.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball.

What were their names?

Mr. Sims.

They were well, it would be Clark and Perry and Oswald.

Mr. Ball.

Give their full names, if you will.

Mr. Sims.

All right.

Mr. Ball.

And what their position is with the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. Sims.

No. 1 was Bill Perry, W. E. Perry, he was No. 1, with the Dallas Police Department, and No. 2 was Lee Harvey Oswald, and No. 3 was R. L. Clark with the Dallas Police Department, and No. 4 was Don Ables, who is a civilian jail clerk.

Mr. Ball.

And who selected Don Ables to be in the showup?

Mr. Sims.

I don't know who selected him.

Mr. Ball.

Does he have his office in the jail?

Mr. Sims.

Well, yes, sir; the jail office he works in there.

Mr. Ball.

Can you give me just a general description of what these fellows look like?