I was making out the statement before that, so, it was immediately after the motorcade had passed through there.
Mr. STERN. What was your impression about the source of these noises, if you had one?

Mr. Holland.

Well, the impression was that the shots, the first two or three shots came from the upper part of the street, now, from where I was.

Mr. Stern.

East on Elm?

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes, up in here somewhere. [Indicating.] I didn't have the least idea that it was up any higher, hut I thought the shot was coming---coming from this crowd in here [indicating]. That is what it sounded like to me from where I was.
Mr. STERN. You are indicating on this Exhibit C. Why don't you put a square around the area that you just pointed to. You had no idea, I take it, that the shots were coming from your area?

Mr. Holland.

No.
Mr. STERN. It is your impression that they did not, could not, as far as the sound was concerned?

Mr. Holland.

As far as the sound was concerned they did not.
Mr. STERN. Did you see anything on the overpass that seemed to you any way unusual?

Mr. Holland.

Oh, no; no.

Mr. Stern.

All right. Off the record.
(Off the record.)

Mr. Stern.

Back on the record. Now, Mr. Holland, I'm showing you a copy of an affidavit which I am marking as Exhibit D. That is the affidavit you made that you described a few moments ago?

Mr. Holland.

That's right.

Mr. Stern.

Would you read that.

Mr. Holland.

"I am signal supervisor for the Union Terminal, and I was inspecting signal and switches and stopped to watch the parade. I was standing on the top of the triple underpass and the President's car was coming down Elm Street, and when they got just about to the arcade, I heard what I thought for a moment was a firecracker and he slumped over and I looked over toward the arcade and trees and saw a puff of smoke come from the trees and I heard three more shots after the first shot but that was the only puff of smoke I saw. I immediately ran around to where I could see behind the arcade and did not see anyone running from there. But the puff of smoke I saw definitely came from behind the arcade to the trees. After the first shot the President slumped over and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up and tried to get over in the back seat to him and then the second shot rang out. After the first shot the Secret Service man raised up in the seat with a machine gun and then dropped back down. in the seat. And they immediately sped off. Everything is spinning in my head and if I remember anything else later I will come back and tell Bill." That is Mr. Decker. And--brother it was, too.

Mr. Stern.

I'm sure it was.

Mr. Holland.

Stand there and watch two or three men get killed----

Mr. Stern.

Now, that statement makes clear that you heard four shots, thought you heard four shots at that time?

Mr. Holland.

Yes.

Mr. Stern.

All right.

Mr. Holland.

But, two of them was rather close together, though.

Mr. Stern.

So close do you think that might have been one shot?

Mr. Holland.

No, it was four.

Mr. Stern.

You are clear there were four?

Mr. Holland.

No; it was different sounds, different reports.
Mr. STERN. All right. Mr. Morrison, are there any questions you would like to ask Mr. Holland to clarify any points that we discussed?

Mr. Morrison.

Mr. Holland, is there anything you might add to this?

Mr. Holland.

Well, the only thing that I remember now that I didn't then, I remember about the third car down from this fence, there was a station wagon backed up toward the fence, about the third car down, and a spot, I'd say 3 foot by 2 foot, looked to me like somebody had been standing there for a long