Mr. Holland.

right out from under those trees. And at just about this location from where I was standing you could see that puff of smoke, like someone had thrown a firecracker, or something out, and that is just about the way it sounded. It wasn't as loud as the previous reports or shots.

Mr. Stern.

What number would that have been in the----

Mr. Holland.

Well, that would--they were so close together.

Mr. Stern.

The second and third or the third and fourth?

Mr. Holland.

The third and fourth. The third and the fourth.

Mr. Stern.

So, that it might have been the third or the fourth?

Mr. HOLLAND. It could have been the third or fourth, but there were definitely four reports.

Mr. Stern.

You have no doubt about that?
Mr. HOLLAND. I have no doubt about it. I have no doubt about seeing that puff of smoke come out from under those trees either.
Mr. STERN. Mr. Holland, do you recall making a statement to an agent of of the FBI several days after?
Mr. HOLLAND. I made a statement that afternoon in Sheriff Bill Decker's office, and then the Sunday or the Sunday following the Friday, there were two FBI men out at my house at the time that Oswald was shot.
Mr. STERN. Did you tell them that you heard distinctly four shots at that time?

Mr. Holland.

Yes.

Mr. Stern.

You were certain then?

Mr. Holland.

I was certain then and I---in that statement I believe that I---

Mr. Stern.

Well, the FBI report that I have said that you heard either three or four shots fired together, and I gather the impression of the agent was that you were uncertain whether it was three or four.
Mr. HOLLAND. At the time I made that statement, of course, I was pretty well shook up, but I told the people at the sheriffs office, whoever took the statement, that I believed there was four shots, because they were so close together, and I have also told those two, four, six Federal men that have been out there that I definitely saw the puff of smoke and heard the report from under those trees.

Mr. Stern.

Did you realize that these were shots then?

Mr. Holland.

Yes; I think I realized what was happening out there.

Mr. Stern.

You did?

Mr. Holland.

When Governor Connally was knocked down in the seat.

Mr. Stern.

What did you then do?

Mr. Holland.

Well. immediately after the shots was fired, I run around the end of this overpass, behind the fence to see if I could see anyone up there behind the fence.

Mr. Stern.

That is the picket fence?

Mr. Holland.

That is the picket fence.

Mr. Stern.

On the north side of Elm Street?

Mr. Holland.

Of course, this was this sea of cars in there and it was just a big-it wasn't an inch in there that wasn't automobiles and I couldn't see up in that corner. I ran on up to the corner of this fence behind the building. By the time I got there there were 12 or 15 policemen and plainclothesmen, and we looked for empty shells around there for quite a while, and I left because I had to get back to the office. I didn't give anyone my name. No one--didn't anyone ask for it, and it wasn't but an hour or so until the deputy sheriff came down to the office and took me back up to the courthouse.

Mr. Stern.

Did he know you personally?

Mr. HOLLAND. No, no; he had to find me and find where I was. He didn't know me, and I don't know who told me they wanted me over at the courthouse, so, I went back up there with him and made out the statement. and made made out the statement before they found out the results on the shots, or before that Oswald had even shot that policeman.