(Testimony of Michael R. Paine)
Mr. Liebeler.
What else did you and Oswald say on the way home after the meeting?
Mr. Paine.
So I was describing to him the purpose of the ACLU, and he said specifically, I can remember this, after I had described it and said that I was a member, that he couldn't join an organization like that, it wasn't political and he said something or responded in some manner, which indicated surprise that I could be concerned about joining an organization simply to defend, whose purpose it is, shall we say, to defend, free speech, free speech, per se, your freedom as well as mine.
He was aware of enjoying his freedom to speak but he didn't seem to be aware of the more general principle of freedom to speak for everyone which has value in itself. And I think it took him by surprise that a person could be concerned about a value like that rather than political objective of some sort, and this was, struck me as a new idea and it struck me that he must never have met people who paid more than lip service, he wasn't familiar with the ways of expressing this value.
Mr. Dulles.
Did you say anything to him about the activities of the Civil Liberties Union in connection with the defense of people accused of crimes under certain conditions?
Mr. Paine.
Yes; I am sure I told him that it came to the defense of all people who didn't seem to be receiving adequate help when it seemed to be an issue involving the Bill of Rights. I was then--that was a pang of sorrow that occurred after the assassination when I realized that he had then subsequently, a fortnight later, joined the ACLU, and still didn't quite seem to perceive its purpose, and then I realized--I had also perceived earlier that he was still a young fellow and I had been expecting rather a lot of him, when I first approached meeting him; this man had been to Russia and had been back and I had been--met some others who had been around the world like that and they are powerful people.
Mr. Liebeler.
Did Oswald impress you that way?
Mr. Paine.
And he did not impress me that way; no.
Mr. Liebeler.
Did Oswald respond to your, or did you request Oswald or did you suggest to him that he join the ACLU?
Mr. Paine.
No; I don't think I was eager to have him join until he knew what was what about it.
Mr. Liebeler.
During the time after the ACLU meeting did Oswald say anything about his discussion with Mr. Krystinik?
Mr. Paine.
No; I don't believe so.
Mr. Liebeler.
Did you subsequently discuss that with Krystinik?
Mr. Paine.
Yes; I did.
Mr. Liebeler.
What did you say and what did he say?
Mr. Paine.
He told me how he had argued, that he had pointed out. that he had employed a few people himself, he works at Bell but on the side, at night he had done a little extra business and had employed other people, and had to receive from them more than he paid them, that he received from their labor, for their product, more than he paid them but that he created work and jobs, and he was fully--and he was ready to defend his way of that activity and was presenting that against Lee's criticism and apparently encountered the same kind of nonsequitur response or no response from him or Lee's response didn't--Lee presented his opposing view against it without any issue.
Mr. Liebeler.
You mentioned that Krystinik and Oswald had almost gotten into a fight, did Krystinik tell you that?
Mr. Paine.
I think it was Frank who told me that.
Mr. Liebeler.
Can you tell us more about that?
Mr. Paine.
I am sure Frank would not haul off and slug him, but just Frank said he got pretty mad at this. I think Frank was using that expression to me only, you know, saying how irked he was at Lee.
Mr. Liebeler.
He didn't indicate that Oswald had threatened any physical violence toward him in connection with the argument, did he?
Mr. Paine.
Oh, no; I think Lee knows how to keep his temper, knows how to control himself,
Senator COOPER. Might I ask a question at this time?
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