Mr. Paine.

the impression, that these people, there were three Communist groups apparently in New York at the time, and they were most up in arms with each other, or there--

Mr. Dulles.

Excuse me, how old were you at this time approximately?

Mr. Paine.

This was somewhere from eighth grade to high school.

Mr. Dulles.

Yes.

Representative Ford.

What year about, what time span would that be?

Mr. Paine.

Well 1947, I think I got out of high school, so it is 1943 to 1947.
Then I didn't--I got the flavor of those meetings. I found sort of an intense people, people of high intensity. I didn't feel very much at home there, and I guess I didn't go to any more.

Mr. Dulles.

Did they try to recruit you at all or to get you to be a member or attend or join meetings?

Mr. Paine.

No; they were glad to meet Lyman's son. That is he would introduce me to friends or people he knew there, and I liked--I had some favorable attitudes to the zeal of the group or the zeal of the assembled people.
They were fully committed to what they believed in. I had my own dreams of how I would like to see society at the time and it wasn't along-the same line.
So, I felt happy to have them there and I would go my course and just--I didn't feel opposed to them; neither did I feel drawn to them, although I tried to read some of Das Kapital at that time and Communist manifesto.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did you ever join any of these organizations?

Mr. Paine.

Well, I didn't know of any organization as such.
I went to this meeting in downtown New York. I didn't know--so therefore I knew three groups. Maybe it was the Socialist group and the Stalinist group and I think the group that Lyman was in, I don't know, maybe he was a Socialist.

Mr. Liebeler.

Which was the second group, was it the Stalinist?

Mr. Paine.

I mentioned the Stalinist, Dubinsky, David Dubinsky, was the only name I remember aside from Stalin, was a name I remember there, and I can't now remember whose side who was on.

Mr. Libeler.

Do you have any clear recollection of what particular group your father was associated with?

Mr. Paine.

No; I never had--never knew what the name of any group he might be associated with.
Now, I suppose it was Trotsky. Trotskyite was a different distinct group at that time. They probably wouldn't be mentioning their own group. They would be mentioning their opponent's group.

Mr. Liebeler.

Subsequent to your attendance at the meetings of these groups at the time you have spoken of did you ever attend any other meetings of similar groups either in New York or any other place?

Mr. Paine.

I can't remember anything of a similar nature.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did you know of your father ever using any aliases?

Mr. Paine.

No; I don't.

Mr. Liebeler.

You are not familiar with the name Thomas L. Brown or Lyman Pierce?

Mr. Paine.

No.

Mr. Liebeler.

When was the--

Mr. Paine.

I was aware that my father didn't talk readily about his affairs. When we met we would talk at great length and we always do talk. There is an amazing similarity in our natures. I have almost thought there was one person trying to live in two bodies.
But we have always been completely absorbed in subjects that were closer to my--without going into what he was doing day to day or what he was--I was aware that I didn't know, and I didn't pry or probe as to what he might be doing there.

Mr. Liebeler.

So far as you know, however, he was actively participating in the meetings and activities of this group?

Mr. Paine.

Oh, yes.

Mr. Liebeler.

Am I correct in understanding that your father and mother were divorced when you were about 4 years old?

Mr. Paine.

That is right.