Mr. Hubert.

Did you have any other association with him

Mr. Carlin.

No; only about 4 or 5 years ago I was at his home once, again, dealing with a car. He buys and sells cars.

Mr. Hubert.

You spoke to him on the 30th of October just after noon, on the 30th of October. Do you recall whether you had ever spoken to him prior to that date, or do you recall when was the last time you spoke to him prior to that date?

Mr. Carlin.

I don't recall the last time I spoke to him prior to that That particular call, I think, was in regard to a head for a motor that was gone out on the one I had.

Mr. Hubert.

Would you say you hadn't spoken to him for a year? That's what I gather?

Mr. Carlin.

I would say at least a year and maybe more.

Mr. Hubert.

You had no contact with him for at least a year up until that time?

Mr. Carlin.

No.

Mr. Hubert.

Have you had any contact with him since? Mr. CARLIN. No.

Mr. Hubert.

Who put in the call to Ruby on Saturday night when you were asking for the $5 from him?

Mr. Carlin.

The first call--Karen went to the phone booth and made, and the second call was made from the parking lot, and I don't recall whether it was Karen or I that called him. It might have even been Tammi that dialed the number.

Mr. Hubert.

What place was called?

Mr. Carlin.

His home to my knowledge I talked to him, and I assumed that he was at home.

Mr. Hubert.

Yes?

Mr. Carlin.

It seems as though we had to make two calls--I don't know whether he no, maybe it was just one and I talked to him after Karen did. Maybe that's the way it was--I don't recall.

Mr. Hubert.

You think it was at his home rather than an,y place else?

Mr. Carlin.

I assume it was. I did not dial the number.

Mr. Hubert.

How much did you ask him for that night or did Karen ask him for, or both?

Mr. Carlin.

Well, we didn't ask him for the $5. We told him that we needed the money. and we came over here thinking that he would be open and we could get the money, and I don't know what he said to her, but he upset her--I don't know whether he hung up on her and she dialed the number back or someone dialed the number back, but he upset her and I took the phone and I said something to the effect that he had been very good about letting her have money when she needed it and we appreciated it, and we were in a jam, and that we came over without any money and needed it the next day, and he said, "Well, Bruce, I don't owe that girl anything." He said, "I'11 give her money when she has money due," and he said, "I don't owe her anything," and I said, "I realize that but we are in a jam," and he said, "Well, let me speak to--" the man them whatever his name was--I don't recall whether he called him by name or not, "and I'll tell him to give you $5." He said it in a tone of voice as though he was upset and mad because we had called. Oh, he said, "I can't come down there, I've got people here and company," and I did hear people talking.

Mr. Hubert.

In other words, he was reluctant to give you the $5, to lend you the $5?

Mr. Carlin.

Not So much reluctant. He offered it, but I didn't think to ask him to let us borrow the money from somebody there and pay him back. I didn't think of that, he did.

Mr. Hubert.

But his position was that he didn't owe any money, so he was lending the money?

Mr. Carlin.

Well, he owed it; I believe. Again--I'm not sure, but he said, "I don't owe that girl a thing." In other words--"I've done enough for her," and I don't mean as far as money. He said, "I've done her enough favors and I don't owe her anything."