Mr. Newnam.

I fix that from the standpoint that he paid me some money for some ads he had run a few days before or a day before and he didn't have enough money to pay me for the ad he was running the next day, so I just made the remark "I'll see you next week," which was routine in fact, and he said--he just nodded and said, "yes," and he walked on out the door. I place that time also by the fact that

Mr. Hubert.

Now, before you leave that--that paying of the money doesn't of itself, as I understand it, fix the time unless you relate it to something else ?

Mr. Newnam.

No; I'm relating it to you because that was the last transaction we had. That was the last time I saw Jack. Immediately thereafter there were a number of us who were getting together to try to figure out where we might go to have lunch and it was before 2 o'clock because our cafeteria closes ordinarily at 2 o'clock, and we finally wound up going to the cafeteria eating a light lunch. This is how I place the time approximately.

Mr. Hubert.

Then the last dealing you had with Ruby was the payment of the money?

Mr. Newnam.

Yes.

Mr. Hubert.

In point of time you think that was approximately 20 minutes

prior to the 2 o'clock shutclown of the cafeteria?

Mr. Newnam.

Approximately; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert.

In other words, when you got to the cafeteria it was about to close?

Mr. Newnam.

Really, I don't know whether they were going to close that day or not. I'll be real frank with you--it ordinarily does at 2 o'clock; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert.

Can you place the time of his departure relative to the time that you first heard that the President was dead?

Mr. Newnam.

That might be a little difficult tO do.

Mr. Hubert.

Well, let's approach it this way: Is it your recollection that

he was present when the announcement came that the President was dead?

Mr. Newnam.

Yes; I'm sure he was in the office.

Mr. Hubert.

Is there anything that fixes it in your mind that way, so that you are able to say "I'm sure he was there"?

Mr. Newnam.

The only thing that would fix it would be the fact that the announcement was made, but I don't even recall what time the announcement was made now. I may be assuming that he was there.

Mr. Hubert.

Do you remember any reaction of his to the fact of the Presi-

dent's death ? You see, there was first the announcement of the shooting?

Mr. Newnam.

Yes.

Mr. Hubert.

And then there was the Tippit shooting and then ultimately of course came the announcement of the President's death. Is there any recollection in your mind as to his reaction to that ultimate announcement of the death ?

Mr. Newnam.

No specific; no, sir.

Mr. Hubert.

After he paid you the money, did you immediately leave with

your friends to go and find something to eat?

Mr. Newnam.

No, sir.

Mr. Hubert.

How much time elapsed between the time he paid you the money and you left?

Mr. Newnam.

Oh, I would say some 20 or 30 minutes, I don't know exactly.

Mr. Hubert.

Now, let's get at it this way: How much time elapsed, do you

think, between the time of the announcement of the President's death and the time you left to go to eat?

Mr. Newnam.

Well, I don't recall really the specific time the announcement was made. This leaves me a little bit undecided as to the specific amount of time that would elapse in there.

Mr. Hubert.

Where were you when you heard of the President's death?

Mr. Newnam.

I was still in the department.

Mr. Hubert.

But were you at your desk?

Mr. Newnam.

I don't recall that. We were moving from desk to desk--the boss had me handling cancellations or whatever happened to come up---we were still trying to take care of the business and do what was necessary. I do not recall exactly where I was when that announcement came out.