Mr. Pappas.

I would say 45 minutes, and that is only an approximation, because I have not thought about it.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you have access to the phones in the police department for communication with New York?

Mr. Pappas.

Yes; but not immediately.

Mr. Griffin.

When did that come about?

Mr. Pappas.

After midnight for me, sometime after midnight, well into the morning, when things had settled down.

Mr. Griffin.

Do you remember--let me ask you this. You did have occasion to meet Jack Ruby while you were in Dallas?

Mr. Pappas.

Yes.

Mr. Griffin.

Now, do you recall seeing Jack Ruby at any time before the press conference that Henry Wade held on Friday night?

Mr. Pappas.

No; I did not meet him before.

Mr. Griffin.

Do you remember a reporter from one of the Washington newspapers by the name of O'Leary?

Mr. Pappas.

No; not by name. Perhaps by sight.

Mr. Griffin.

I ask you this because in talking with O'Leary, O'Leary had the recollection that he met Ruby with you on the third floor of the Dallas Police Department sometime before the press conference, and he thought it was in the vicinity of the public elevators. Do you recall anything like that?

Mr. Pappas.

I don't recall that; no. If this incident happened, if O'Leary is right about the person that he was with, I don't remember it. Perhaps somebody. I don't even know who it was that I was with that night. There was a lot of confusion. If this person was Jack Ruby, he didn't do anything that would make that occurrence stick in my mind.

Mr. Griffin.

I might be able to identify O'Leary, a little better for you, by indicating that he explained to us that on Sunday you and he had worked out a procedure whereby you figured out whether you could, by running, beat the elevator from the third floor down to the basement. As I recall his explanation, he said that you rode on the elevator and he ran down the stairs, and you two found that he could run down the stairs before the elevator could get down there. Do you remember that episode?

Mr. Pappas.

No; I don't. I think O'Leary has me mistaken for someone else. I don't recall that at all.
This was Sunday, of course, the day of the killing of Oswald?

Mr. Griffin.

Yes.

Mr. Pappas.

No; I don't recall that incident.

Mr. Griffin.

Were you on the third floor when Henry Wade came out of homicide office just before the conference was held in the assembly room?

Mr. Pappas.

Friday night, you mean?

Mr. Griffin.

Yes.

Mr. Pappas.

Yes.

Mr. Griffin.

Can you tell us how close you were to the homicide door, and what happened that you recall?

Mr. Pappas.

As I recall it, I was at the head of the corridor.

Mr. Griffin.

Now, where is the head?

Mr. Pappas.

Well--

Mr. Griffin.

Near the public elevators?

Mr. Pappas.

Well, it is near the public elevators; yes.

Mr. Griffin.

Or were you closer to the homicide room?

Mr. Pappas.

It is in an "L" form. As you come out of the elevators, you have to turn left to go down the corridor. Well, from the elbow, let's say, of the "L" to the homicide office, I couldn't Judge perhaps 30 or 40 feet, roughly. I don't know. But I was--if we are using that standard that I just described, I was approximately 30 feet from Mr. Wade, who was coming out of the office.

Mr. Griffin.

And what did you do when Wade came out?

Mr. Pappas.

I listened.

Mr. Griffin.

And then what happened?

Mr. Pappas.

Then everybody crowded around him and they said, "What do you have to say, Henry? What about this? What about that?" And he started to