Mr. Griffin.

Now, this is in 1963, this was after you left the Lewis Ribbon Co.

Mr. Rubenstein.

Yes; I had a lot of money outstanding on the road from merchandise I had sold to my customers and that was more important to me than taking any kind of a job.

Mr. Griffin.

This wasn't going to help you out?

Mr. Rubenstein.

He thought--he didn't know what my position was.

Mr. Griffin.

But you told him, did you tell him, that you really didn't need it? That you were doing all right?

Mr. Rubenstein.

Yes; I told him, I didn't want no 7-day a week proposition right off the bat, that was No. 1. No. 2, I was a little bit too old for that kind of a deal. You get to be a certain age you don't want that noise all night long and you realize it, you don't have to be there but you can realize it, you can visualize the job. I didn't want it. All of a sudden he sends me up, do you know what a twistboard is? I should have brought one with me.

Mr. Griffin.

Tell us what it is.

Mr. Rubenstein.

I showed it to the FBI. Somebody in Dallas invented a twistboard. It is a square board, two boards, one on top of the other with a ball bearing that separates it in the center.

Mr. Griffin.

So that one piece of wood rests on the floor and the other would swivel around on the top of it?

Mr. Rubenstein.

And you stand on this and you can twist.

Mr. Griffin.

Indicating you stand on the board and twist your body around.

Mr. Rubenstein.

"$1.69 retail, hottest thing in the world. Go out and sell it." I still have it home with the original wrapper and all.

Mr. Griffin.

This is what Jack told you?

Mr. Rubenstein.

He told me and he also made me a sample.

Mr. Griffin.

How many did he mail you?

Mr. Rubenstein.

Just one. He mailed Earl one, anybody in Chicago he thought he could contact for promotion he mailed one, because he had the distributorship.

Mr. Griffin.

Do you remember any--

Mr. Rubenstein.

That is the kind of a guy Jack is. He gets a hot item, boom, he wants to go out and sell it, promote it, that is his life. You can never take that out of a person.

Mr. Griffin.

Do you remember some of these other things that he did like that?

Mr. Rubenstein.

Yes.

Mr. Griffin.

Tell us about it.

Mr. Rubenstein.

When Roosevelt died he was the first one with a plaster of Paris bust, and he sold them all over the country. I don't know, it wasn't much. He probably paid them $1 apiece for them and sold them for $2.

Mr. Griffin.

Do you know who manufactured them?

Mr. Rubenstein.

No; but somebody in Chicago done Jack a favor, they made him a mold and kept on making these things for him and he either shipped them or took them and sold them by himself, always something, anything that is hot, he is right there out with it.

Mr. Griffin.

Any others; can you think of any others?

Mr. Rubenstein.

Punchboard deals. He would pick up items that the average person couldn't afford to buy. Let's say a small radio, probably would retail for about $18 or $19 he would arrange on a punchboard card that from 1 to 39 cents the winner would get the radio and the guy selling the board would get a radio, that the radios would probably cost him about $5 apiece because they would buy lots of them, small radios, little ones, cheaply constructed. Well, you walk into a plant and get hold of a foreman and say, "Would you like one of these for yourself?" " Sure." "Well, sell out the punchcard on their lunch hour, mail me the money, give the winner this radio and I will mail you a radio." Perfect. Good gimmick.

Mr. Griffin.

As I understand it then, part of the punchboard gimmick was that he would give some merchandise away with it, is that right?

Mr. Rubenstein.

That is right. Incentive. Otherwise, why should the foreman take the board? The foreman wants one exactly like he is going to give to the winner, and there was always enough profit left over for Jack to sufficiently