Mr. Ruenstein.

He never liked to show off. He is not that kind of a loud mouth braggadocio, he never went in for that stuff. He hung around Barney Ross all his life. He liked Barney Ross. Everybody liked Barney Ross.

Mr. Griffin.

Were you one of Barney Ross' followers?

Mr. Rubenstein.

Naturally when you live on the west side you have got to be a follower.

Mr. Griffin.

I mean did you hang around him?

Mr. Rubenstein.

No; he was Jack's age. I knew Barney through Jack, you know, met him.

Mr. Griffin.

I take it you were not in a position to know Jack's friends when Jack was a child.

Mr. Rubenstein.

His friends were the fellows who loved life and go out and have a good time. His business associates were fellows who were hustlers and like to make money. So you put two and two together. You find good business associates who are hustlers, and you had to be, without much education, go out and make money, and in the evening you go out and you find the friends you like to spend it with. He never hung around with no hoodlums. We knew hoodlums, sure. If they come into a restaurant where you are, next to them you are sitting, "Hello, Hy," "Hello, Joe." What do you do, ignore them? You have known them all your life, you don't ignore them.

Mr. Griffin.

Kids from the neighborhood?

Mr. Rubenstein.

Kids from the neighborhood.

Mr. Griffin.

Do you have any people in mind?

Mr. Rubenstein.

Wherever you lived on the west side there was a hoodlum or became a hoodlum who you went to school with, or you belonged to some club with, or maybe--let me give you another example or you played ball with them. You never knew. You never knew. They surprised you.

Mr. Griffin.

Who were Jack's closest friends before he went to Dallas?

Mr. Rubenstein.

He was very popular, he had a lot of friends.

Mr. Griffin.

Who were the people he was closest to?

Mr. Rubenstein.

What age?

Mr. Griffin.

Let's take it after he got out of high school.

Mr. Rubenstein.

Harry Epstein was one, a business promoter. Sam Gordon on the west coast now, very wealthy man, a business promoter.

Mr. Griffin.

How about Ira Kolitz?

Mr. Rubenstein.

He knew Ira from the Lawndale; he knew Ira.

Mr. Griffin.

But they weren't close?

Mr. Rubenstein.

Leave me tell you something now so you people understand. Ira Kolitz comes from one of the finest families in Chicago. His father was a banker on the west side. But living on the west side you are next door--your next-door neighbor might be a hoodlum, you don't know. Maybe Ira Kolitz went to school with Jack, it could have been. Maybe they hung around the same poolroom together. I was in the Army with Ira. How much Jack hung around with Ira, I don't know. I know Ira had a couple of taverns downtown; that I did know. Whether a tavern owner is a hoodlum that is another category, that I don't know.

Mr. Griffin.

How about Marty Gimpel?

Mr. Rubenstein.

He died; poor Marty. Marry was a nice guy; worked for the post office for many years, saved up a nice piece of change, went down to Dallas, Tex.; they tried to promote homes, build homes, out of log cabins. They built one, they sold it and that was the end of that deal as far as I know.

Mr. Griffin.

Was Marty friendly with Jack during the thirties?

Mr. Rubenstein.

I don't know. I imagine; yes.

Mr. Griffin.

When did you first become aware that Marry was--

Mr. Rubenstein.

I don't remember.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you know Marty in Chicago?

Mr. Rubenstein.

I knew of him. Probably met him once or twice at the house.

Mr. Griffin.

Do you know when he went to Texas?