Mrs. Grant.

I would say in 1958 or 1959, I have just forgotten now, I'll be honest about it.

Mr. Hubert.

Do you recall whether Jack himself was involved in some sort of juvenile court proceedings?

Mrs. Grant.

We all were. In the State of Illinois, when parents separated, I think there is such a thing as you are under the jurisdiction of the juvenile court, because I went to court several times. I don't think--I think I was probably 12 or 13 years old--I don't know. I remember going to a very famous court and I can't think of the judge's name.

Mr. Hubert.

Well, what I'm trying to get at is this----

Mrs. Grant.

Not for being bad or anything.

Mr. Hubert.

That's exactly what I want to get at. In other words, these juvenile court proceedings resulted, you say, from the mere fact that you had a broken home and not from the fact----

Mrs. Grant.

The Jewish Aid Society----

Mr. Hubert.

Just a minute, let me finish the question--this did not reflect that the juveniles involved, whether it was you or Jack----

Mrs. Grant.

Or anyone else.

Mr. Hubert.

Or anyone else had been in any trouble such as we call today--juvenile delinquency; is that correct?

Mrs. Grant.

That's right.

Mr. Hubert.

And your statement to me is that although you yourself have been in these proceedings----

Mrs. Grant.

I have been in front of the judge.

Mr. Hubert.

It has not been because of juvenile delinquency; is that correct?

Mrs. Grant.

Well, there was a big----

Mr. Hubert.

Just answer my question, I think you can answer my question.

Mrs. Grant.

I have been there several times in front of a judge and my mother was there and the kids were there, and truthfully, it's all so vague I can't remember.

Mr. Hubert.

Do you remember that in his youth Jack was called by the nickname "Sparky"?

Mrs. Grant.

Oh, yes.

Mr. Hubert.

Could you tell us how he acquired that name?

Mrs. Grant.

Well, there was a horse called "Sparky" that was the slowest darn horse you ever saw and it was a joke, you know, in the funny papers, and they would rib him about him. Jack was short and fat and stocky. He wobbled when he walked, from the time I remember he was 5 years old, until the time he was 8, and it seemed shortly after that he acquired that name and that burned him up, and from then on he has become very fast with his fists and he started hitting fellows--well--the fellows who probably kept calling him "Sparky", let's say, but these were all little boys--8, 9, 11 or 10.

Mr. Hubert.

And that's how he got the name "Sparky"?

Mrs. Grant.

As much as I remember.

Mr. Hubert.

From two sources--from the horse named "Spark Plug" or the comic strip that had a horse named "Spark Plug" and from the fact that he, as a child, reacted quickly to taunts of his young friends?

Mrs. Grant.

Well, he changed, but the name stuck with him still.

Mr. Hubert.

Yes; I understand that, but we are just talking about how he acquired the name.

Mrs. Grant.

Yes.

Mr. Hubert.

How would you describe the neighborhood in which you were raised, generally, and the conditions under which you were generally raised?

Mrs. Grant.

Well, when you discuss people who come from the old country, that was the best neighborhood they could afford to live in. Two doors down were some very wealthy people---the Katzen family. My father was a carpenter and he worked--he tried to work all the time. There wasn't work always available, but it was considered a poor neighborhood, but I'll tell you--went with him four blocks away to look over other neighborhoods.

Mr. Hubert.

Well, as you recall it now, would you classify it as a good neighborhood, or a bad neighborhood, or what? Because, you see, we are trying to get some background information here.