Mr. Ruby.

Wait, you are ahead of me. The first conversation I didn't mention a lawyer to Mike Shore yet.

Mr. Griffin.

I realize that.

Mr. Ruby.

Yes.

Mr. Griffin.

But I am still asking you, you had indicated to me that the reason that you were calling Shore and thinking about a life story was that you were going to need money for another lawyer. The life story, as I understand it, is tied in with the idea of getting the money for a lawyer, or was there another reason for selling the life story?

Mr. Ruby.

No; I think I talked to Tom Howard because we never heard of him, of course. In the meantime, I think in conversations back and forth, we talked with another lawyer there, somebody talked to him from the family or maybe it was relayed through my sister Eva down there and I have a ,brother Sam in Dallas--do we need another lawyer. And then we learned that they were already trying to get a lawyer.
Now, you must understand, we have to go back to Tom Howard. Tom Howard is a bondsman in addition to being a lawyer. That is what he is noted for there. So then I think I talked to this other lawyer, Stanley Kaufman. He was my brother's civil lawyer down there. And I asked him if he knows a good criminal lawyer, and he says, no, he can't recommend anyone.

Mr. Griffin.

Let me interrupt you, Mr. Ruby.

Mr. Ruby.

Excuse me. I can't remember the exact sequence of all these conversations, because they were going back and forth all day and night.

Mr. Griffin.

Maybe we can reconstruct it by asking you questions. From what you have said, I take it that by the time you called or somebody talked to Stanley Kaufman, the idea had been implanted that you would need a lawyer other than Tom Howard.

Mr. Ruby.

Yes.

Mr. Griffin.

Now, who had planted the idea? How did that idea develop that you would need a lawyer other than Tom Howard?

Mr. Ruby.

I don't remember exactly, but it could have been even my own thoughts, because a day or two after the shooting and the papers started to print stories, and stories about Tom Howard, and I realized who he was, and he was suspended at one time, I immediately thought this was not a good lawyer to have for my brother.

Mr. Griffin.

Now, what was Jack's original attitude, if you know, about Tom Howard?

Mr. Ruby.

He wasn't too crazy about Tom Howard, as far as I could see, from what he hold me, because he said Tom Howard contradicted himself a few times to him.

Mr. Griffin.

But did Jack, to your knowledge, develop the idea on his own that he should get somebody other than Howard, or was this suggestion raised to Jack?

Mr. Ruby.

That I don't know. You are asking me what his thoughts were. I don't know. I can't answer that.

Mr. Griffin.

I didn't know if you had contact with him or not. Now, to your knowledge, were any other Dallas lawyers contacted besides Tom Howard before the final team of Belli, Tonahill, and Burleson?

Mr. Ruby.

Oh, yes; Belli was the main one, you know. He was the first one.

Mr. Griffin.

Yes; but before Belli was brought in, were any other Dallas lawyers, or Texas lawyers----

Mr. Ruby.

Oh, yes; they talked, Howard--Howard and I discussed this, and he said he needs help, he wouldn't mind another good lawyer. So we mentioned several names. He talked to Percy Foreman, and Percy Foreman, he told me case. So he says, "I know you don't have that kind of money so that eliminates him."
However, later, upon talking to Foreman, he denies that. He said he only asked for $2,500.
Anyhow, they contacted Stanley Kaufman, Stanley Kaufman contacted Fred Brunner. He is a Dallas criminal lawyer, very good. And the story I got is he says, "Okay, I'll handle the case. I will be right down to take over."