Mr. Ruby.

He never showed up. We found out why. He is Henry Wade's best friend, and so it just wouldn't work out. He just couldn't take it. Although he never called, we understood that that is what happened, because they down there found out that he was Henry Wade's best friend, and so he probably for one reason or another, he couldn't take the case.

Mr. Griffin.

You don't have any personal knowledge, however, that the friendship with Howard was the reason that Brunner didn't take the case?

Mr. Hubert.

With Wade.

Mr. Griffin.

With Wade. You don't know this?

Mr. Ruby.

No; I talked to Brunner myself when I was down there later on. Brunner said something to the effect--I don't remember the exact words. I ran into him in the county jail. I don't remember what he said.

Mr. Griffin.

Did he say anything to you about why he didn't get into the case?

Mr. Ruby.

I am just trying to, if I can find the words or Something close to what he said. We just met in the hallway, and he said---I can't recall that conversation at all.

Mr. Griffin.

Did Brunner mention----

Mr. Ruby.

But I had a later conversation which I remember very clearly.

Mr. Griffin.

Tell us about that.

Mr. Ruby.

This was after Jack received the sentence, you know.

Mr. Griffin.

Yes.

Mr. Ruby.

Then Brunner told me that he now wants to help Jack. He feels that this would never have happened if he had handled the case originally, the verdict, you know, the death verdict, and that I should talk to the family and think over about him taking over the defense.

Mr. Griffin.

Did he mention anything about Henry Wade at that conversation?

Mr. Ruby.

Yes; he said, "Even though I am very close," words to the effect that "even though I am very close with Wade, don't let that worry you," or something to that effect. But I forget that first conversation, and I just don't want to give you words----

Mr. Griffin.

Had he mentioned Wade in the first conversation that you recall?

Mr. Ruby.

I am not sure and I don't want to just--no, we contacted Percy Foreman. You want to know who else?

Mr. Griffin.

Yes.

Mr. Ruby.

I didn't know. This is only that I learned from Howard. He said he contacted Percy Foreman. He contacted Fred Erisman, a retired judge. There is another one, another very good criminal lawyer, but I can't even think of his last name to look it up. Is it important? I've got it here, but I just can't remember the name.
Oh, yes; here is another one they talked to, I understand--Jim Martin. In fact, he was in the case more or less with Howard. Oh, that is Charlie Tessmer, the other lawyer they contacted. And he turned it down. Why, he never told us, but he turned it down. In the meantime, I had talked to Charlie Bellows from Chicago who is now acting as consultant.

Mr. Griffin.

How did you happen to contact Mr. Bellows?

Mr. Ruby.

Well, one of my close friends in Chicago worked in his office, another lawyer, Rheingold, Milton Rheingold.

Mr. Griffin.

Incidentally, let me ask you here, did you know a lawyer in Chicago by the name of Weiner?

Mr. Ruby.

A lawyer ? I don't think so, not a lawyer. I know a doctor, not a lawyer.

Mr. Griffin.

Go ahead now with your contact with Bellows.

Mr. Ruby.

So we talked to Bellows. I talked to him, rather. And he said he was going to be rather busy, and he wasn't sure he could take the case. As a matter of fact, that is who I wanted originally, because we knew him. His office represented me before Rheingold, was in his office with him, was my civil lawyer in Chicago, more or less, so you know at least we had a knowledge of who we were going to hire. And, in addition to that, he is a great criminal lawyer. He is head of the American Defense Lawyers, and all that.

Mr. Griffin.

And had you contacted Bellows before your telephone call to Mike Shore?

Mr. Ruby.

Yes; I am quite sure I did, and I asked him to give me an idea of