Mr. Senator.

I don't remember. You know, they have got a limitation on you. I don't remember just how long I talked to him. It wasn't too long because they let you know that you have got to go.

Mr. Griffin.

Tell us what happened on this occasion.

Mr. Senator.

I don't remember what it was. First of all, I never talked to him, I would never ask him what happened. I never talked about that. I talked about anything else, and he was telling me, he said he wanted me to look up certain people, the locales, tell them where he was and things like that there, like sisters and Gordon McLendon which he asked me to go, whom I never saw, never got to.

Mr. Griffin.

What was Jack's relationship with Gordon McLendon?

Mr. Senator.

He just knew him. There was no relationship. He mentioned a lot of names. He mentioned a lot of names to call them for the bond hearing. I remember this. He was trying to get certain people to come to the bend hearing. And he was rattling off a lot of big names. He rattled off the manager, I don't remember the name, from the Statler Hilton, anybody who was prominent, such as I think the rabbi too if I am not mistaken.

Mr. Griffin.

Did Jack appear to want to make bond at that time?

Mr. Senator.

I don't know. He didn't discuss that, but I do know--I can't answer unless you want me to surmise something, guess on it.

Mr. Griffin.

Unless you have some information which leads you to think how he felt.

Mr. Senator.

I don't have information on that.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you ever talk to the lawyers about whether they were really serious about making bond?

Mr. Senator.

I think the lawyers were trying to get bond for him.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you ever talk with them?

Mr. Senator.

No. I will tell you something. The lawyers didn't discuss anything with me at no time. They said, "George, we are going to use you as a witness," which I knew they wanted me for that.

Mr. Griffin.

There came a time when Howard was no longer part of the case?

Mr. Senator.

He was part of the case; he was still part of the case when I left, you know, but how big his say was I don't know.

Mr. Griffin.

When you got back for the trial, however, he was not a part of the case; is that correct?

Mr. Senator.

Yes; I think he was out of it before I got back. I am not sure, but I think he was. I don't think he was in the case.

Mr. Griffin.

When you returned for the trial, did you have occasion to talk with Howard at all?

Mr. Senator.

I saw him on certain occasions.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you ever learn how he happened to get out of the case?

Mr. Senator.

Well, he got out of the case I mean I really don't know, but I feel he got out of the case because he was-there was nothing, practically, to speak of. I guess that is about the best way to describe him. He had no say.

Mr. Griffin.

Was it something he had told you?

Mr. Senator.

What?

Mr. Griffin.

Was it something he had told you?

Mr. Senator.

No, no. But he had no say any more. So I don't know how to classify his sitting there, just being there with no say any more, no nothing. After all, when he originally started, he was the leadman, you know, and then all the things materialized after that.

Mr. Griffin.

How many times would you say you saw Jack Ruby in his jail cell between the time that he shot Oswald and the time that he was tried, actually went to trial, in Dallas?

Mr. Senator.

How many times?

Mr. Griffin.

Yes.

Mr. Senator.

A guess?

Mr. Griffin.

Yes. Your best estimate. Try to give some thought to it.

Mr. Senator.

Let me see now. I would say maybe 10 or 15 times, I would guess.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you notice any change in him over this period of time?

Mr. Senator.

Sure.