Mr. Griffin.

actually see any blows thrown at the Carousel. You came in at the tail end of it.

Mr. Senator.

No; I would say, see, there is an archway; in other words, it is going up a flight of steps.

Mr. Griffin.

Yes.

Mr. Senator.

And at the flight of steps the doors open and then there is a walk in, you know, an archway. It is almost like in a closed archway which is maybe about 20 or 25 steps. Well, around the L shape of it I didn't see.

Mr. Griffin.

Could you tell from where you were how many blows were thrown?

Mr. Senator.

No.

Mr. Griffin.

How long did this last?

Mr. Senator.

It didn't last long because there must have been one or two blows and that was it.

Mr. Griffin.

Did anybody come in and break that up?

Mr. Senator.

I don't know what happened. I just don't remember what happened there. I think he knocked him down. I'm not sure. I think he knocked him down with that blow.

Mr. Griffin.

Did Jack accomplish his purpose?

Mr. Senator.

There was a few people gathered around and the next thing I think they took him down or something like that. I don't know. I just don't recall what happened on that particular incident but I do know that something did happen at the time where this fellow I think he was drunk. I really don't know if he was. I think he was.

Mr. Griffin.

Have you ever talked with Jack about what his attitude is about using his fists?

Mr. SENATOR. No; this, which I don't know too much about his youth, it probably comes from the bringing up of his youth, the poverty that the family went through. His father was a habitual drunkard, of which I have heard, and the separations of the family and they lived in a cold water flat and the only way I'm familiar of something of this nature is what I have seen in motion pictures of past years of this.

Mr. Griffin.

I want you to tell me now if you think I am wrong. I am going to suggest this to you and I want to know if this is a fair evaluation.
Would you say from what you know of Jack that the background that he came from was such that he had the value that one of the ways you solved problems is in certain kinds of situations you haul off and smack the guy, and that this is a tool that people use? Now there are some people who in their daily life wouldn't hit anybody because they don't think that is a proper thing. Would you say that Jack looked at this as a tool that was perfectly acceptable to use?

Mr. Senator.

To tell you the truth if I answered it I don't even know if I would be answering it correctly. I would probably say maybe in certain aspects yes and maybe others no. I really couldn't answer correctly. I couldn't give you a truthful answer on it.

Mr. Griffin.

Why is that that you couldn't give an answer?

Mr. Senator.

Because I couldn't, because I can't think for what the man thinks.

Mr. Griffin.

You don't know that much about him?

Mr. Senator.

No.

Mr. Griffin.

To be able to say that?

Mr. Senator.

I don't know. I would probably say maybe in certain instances it may happen. Maybe in others it wouldn't.

Mr. Griffin.

Let me ask it this way. Knowing Jack Ruby, would you say that there are situations where Jack would haul off and hit a guy, not because he was emotionally concerned but because he felt this was the way to solve the problem at that particular point.

Mr. Senator.

No; I don't think so. I don't think so. I would probably say that he would have to be beefed up pretty good about something before he hit somebody. I would probably say that.

Mr. Griffin.

Was that the case with the man at the Carousel?