Mr. Hubert.

Do you know when?

Mr. Senator.

That was in 1962.

Mr. Hubert.

Did he knock the man off his feet?

Mr. Senator.

I don't know. But I know he got the first lick in.

Mr. Hubert.

How do you know that? He told you?

Mr. Senator.

No. I heard he always gets the first lick in. He ain't going to get hit first if he can help it, if it comes to an argument.

Mr. Hubert.

Is this the opinion that is generally held?

Mr. Senator.

I don't know if that is the opinion that is generally held or not.

Mr. Hubert.

What I am trying to get at is how you got it. Is that your opinion then that he always gets the first lick in?

Mr. Senator.

I would say so because he is pretty fast for his age.

Mr. Griffin.

What was the provocation for his hitting the fellow at the club?

Mr. Senator.

I think this chap here was getting a little loud. I don't remember what the incident was. I think he was making a scene there of some nature.

Mr. Hubert.

Those are the only two occasions 'that you yourself knew about from having observed them yourself?

Mr. Senator.

Oh, I have seen him push somebody out without hitting him.

Mr. Hubert.

Have you seen that often?

Mr. Senator.

No, I don't say often. I have seen it happen. And when it has happened, he happened to hold down certain people.

Mr. Hubert.

Did you ever hear him threaten anybody?

Mr. Senator.

No.

Mr. Hubert.

Like throwing them down the stairs?

Mr. Senator.

I have heard somebody talk about that. Who did I hear? Oh yes, I'll tell you where that was quoted. When I was on the witness stand and Mr. Alexander asked me that.
The question he asked me, if I can quote him, was that he picked on nothing but small men who were drunk and women who were drunk and beat them up.

Mr. Hubert.

What was your answer?

Mr. Senator.

If I recall right, he sort of hollered at me a bit if I remember right.

Mr. Hubert.

Who did?

Mr. Senator.

Mr. Alexander.

Mr. Hubert.

But in any case what is the truth?

Mr. Senator.

What did I answer him?

Mr. Hubert.

What you answered I suppose is the truth. What is the truth as to that question.

Mr. Senator.

I'll tell you how I answered him.

Mr. Hubert.

Yes, all right; tell us that first.

Mr. Senator.

I answered him, I said to Jack Ruby, height has nothing to do with it, or something to that effect if I remember right. It doesn't make any difference if the man is bigger than Jack Ruby because that isn't going to stop him. Jack Ruby isn't afraid of height or size, something like that I answered him.

Mr. Hubert.

That is your opinion now, too?

Mr. Senator.

Yes.

Mr. Hubert.

And you base that opinion on what?

Mr. Senator.

In other words, I base this opinion to say, when I was asked this question on the witness stand, that all he would do would beat up people who were smaller than he and who were drunk.

Mr. Hubert.

And you think that is not so?

Mr. Senator.

No; I say that he doesn't go according to size. I mean I know that he doesn't fear anybody who is taller than he is.

Mr. Hubert.

Now how do you know that? How do you form that opinion right now?

Mr. Senator.

HOW do I form that opinion?

Mr. Hubert.

Yes.

Mr. Senator.

Because I think Jack is of that temperament where size don't mean anything to him.

Mr. Hubert.

You Just base that upon your general knowledge of the man?

Mr. Senator.

Yes; I don't think he is of the nature who would back off.