Mr. Graves.

if you saw that film, you saw one of them with a mike in his hand. He actually rubbed my elbow. We were in a slight turn when this thing happened, and my attention had been called to that car door, and this joker was standing there with a microphone in his hand, and others that--I don't know if they were news-men--they weren't officers--had cameras around their necks and everything.

Mr. Griffin.

As you looked up at that line of news people, from your left over to the TV cameras, how many lines deep is it your recollection that they were?

Mr. Graves.

Well, I would say two or three deep until they crossed that ramp and went down the side. Might not have been more than one deep there. Might not have been much room, because the car was trying to come in there. Might have been two deep. I know there was a line of men there, and how deep I don't know. I saw through the corner of my eye a movement over there of men.

Mr. Griffin.

As you walked out, did you notice any police officers that you recognized?

Mr. Graves.

Oh, yes; I recognized officers standing around the walls there.

Mr. Griffin.

As you walked out, did you see Officer Harrison?

Mr. Graves.

No; I didn't see him. Matter of fact, I never did see him until it was all over. You are talking about "Blackie"?

Mr. Griffin.

"Blackie" Harrison; W.J. Harrison.

Mr. Graves.

I didn't see him until it was all over.

Mr. Griffin.

When you saw Jack come forward with the gun in his hand, did you hear anybody say anything?

Mr. Graves.

I heard noise. There was a racing of a motor and noises, talking going on. As I say, my attention had been directed to that car, and we had already turned, looked in that direction and something could have been said, but as I said, I heard noises but just exactly what was said I wasn't able to determine.

Mr. Griffin.

What do you remember doing when Jack came forward with the gun?

Mr. Graves.

I remember going after the gun. Just the moment I saw him, that is what I actually did, was go for the gun.

Mr. Griffin.

And did you wrestle with him? With Jack?

Mr. Graves.

Yes.

Mr. Griffin.

Will you tell us what you remember Jack Ruby doing from the time you saw him and while you wrestled with him and so forth?

Mr. Graves.

Well, I grabbed his arm by the wrist with my left hand, and grabbed right over the gun with my right hand simultaneously.

Mr. Griffin.

You grabbed the arm holding the gun?

Mr. Graves.

Yes; and jerked it down and across my leg and turned my back to him, and, of course, he was trying to pull back, and was squeezing on that trigger like so [indicating].
I had his wrist here [indicating], and I could feel it, and I remember saying, "turn it loose. Turn it loose." You know, like that.

Mr. Griffin.

Now, you are making a motion like you are twisting his arm?

Mr. Graves.

Yes; I was. See, I had it like this, and I had got that arm and then twisted that-gun like that [indicating], right out of his hand, see.

Mr. Griffin.

Let me indicate for the record that you have shown that you twisted his arm 180°.

Mr. Graves.

Until he released it.

Mr. Griffin.

Until he released the gun?

Mr. Graves.

Yes.

Mr. Graves.

How long was it from the time you released--grabbed his arm until he released the gun?

Mr. Graves.

Just a matter of seconds.

Mr. Griffin.

It was not a long struggle?

Mr. Graves.

No.

Mr. Griffin.

Fairly easy to wrestle the gun away?

Mr. Graves.

Put it this way. It wasn't easy because he had a-grip on the gun, but the way I took it, he had to turn it loose. I had his arm--kind of hard to explain--take your arm and bend it over my leg like that and twist down on it like that [indicating]. You have got to give.

Mr. Griffin.

You are bending the arm over your leg?