Mr. Griffin.

Where was Chief Curry at that time?

Mr. Graves.

I don't know. He left Just before we did and I don't know where he went.

Mr. Griffin.

How long would you estimate Chief Curry left before you people walked out of the homicide bureau with Oswald?

Mr. Graves.

You know, I couldn't tell you. I--I--actually, the chief could have been standing in there somewhere and I wouldn't know it--because when we were given the final go to get him ready or get his sweater on him, I didn't pay any attention to who else was in there or what happened. They told me to get him ready and walked out with him. He could have left a few minutes ahead of us; I don't know, it would be a guess, because I really don't know.

Mr. Griffin.

All right. Now, what happened when you got to the basement?

Mr. Graves.

Well, we got down to the basement. We hesitated on the elevator until Captain Fritz and Lieutenant Swain stepped out. Then we followed them around the outside exit door into the hallway which leads to the ramp and then hesitated there a little bit with Oswald so they could check out there and see that everything was all right, and when we got the go ahead sign that everything was all right we walked out with him.

Mr. Griffin.

And how many steps did you take before something happened?

Mr. Graves.

You mean after we walked out in the hallway?

Mr. Griffin.

Yes.

Mr. Graves.

It is approximately 15 feet from where I was to the jail house door where we came out into the hallway, roughly 15 feet.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you see Jack Ruby move out of the crowd?

Mr. Graves.

No; I didn't see Jack Ruby move out of the crowd.

Mr. Griffin.

When was the first time that you noticed Jack Ruby?

Mr. Graves.

I estimated before I saw the film it was a split second before he pulled that trigger and actually, he was taking a step and coming down like so [indicating]. I caught him out of the corner of my eye and I thought that I started reaching for him at that moment, which the film indicates that I did, which happened quickly, as you know.

Mr. Griffin.

Yes.

Mr. Graves.

Just a matter of simultaneous movement. You just move when you see something like that.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you actually see the gun before you heard it--heard the shots fired?

Mr. Graves.

Yes; in fact, that is the first thing I saw coming that way, and I just stared after it, I guess, automatically, nothing else to do, that I could see.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you see how the newsmen were spread out as you walked out of that hallway?

Mr. Graves.

I saw how they weren't spread out. I was under the impression there wouldn't be any news media inside that rampway, that they would be behind that area over there, but they were in the way.

Mr. Griffin.

How did you get that impression?

Mr. Graves.

Well, Chief Curry told Captain Fritz that the security was taken care of, that there wouldn't be nobody in that ramp. Anyway, that cameras would be over behind that rail of that ramp. So, what we expected to find was our officers along the side there, but we found newsmen inside that ramp, in fact, in the way of that car. Now, we---Captain Fritz sent Dhority and Brown and Beck on down to the basement in plenty of time to get that car up there for us, and when they got down there and run into mass confusion of pressmen, we almost backed over some of them to get up there.

Mr. Griffin.

Now, after Fritz sent Dhority and Brown down, did they send word back up to Fritz' office that everything was ready in the basement?

Mr. Graves.

Somebody did. I believe Baker called--Lieutenant Baker called down from our office to check with the jail downstairs and see that everything was ready. Somebody gave them the word. I don't know whether it was Lieutenant Wiggins or who told them that it was all right. Everything was in order.

Mr. Griffin.

You say you were quite surprised when you saw these news people?

Mr. Graves.

I was surprised that they were rubbing my elbow. You know,