Mr. Crafard.

of it, but, like I say, the first knowledge I had of who had shot Oswald was Monday morning.

Mr. Hubert.

We will get to that in a moment. Now, you had to go through Lansing, and you say it took but an hour and a half?

Mr. Crafard.

That is right.

Mr. Hubert.

What was your next hitch?

Mr. Crafard.

As far as I can remember, I had a series of short rides, 20 or 25 miles to a ride.

Mr. Hubert.

How far along did these series of short rides take you?

Mr. Crafard.

I think I probably traveled about 60 or 70 miles before I got a good ride.

Mr. Hubert.

That point, 60 or 75 miles beyond Lansing being the same point at which you got a good ride, was what place?

Mr. Crafard.

I don't remember.

Mr. Hubert.

Was it a large city, a small town?

Mr. Crafard.

It was a small place as far as I can remember.

Mr. Hubert.

Was that the last hitch you had?

Mr. Crafard.

I believe I got one more after that. I think that one carried me to Mount Pleasant.

Mr. Hubert.

To Mount Pleasant?

Mr. Crafard.

Yes.

Mr. Hubert.

How far is Mount Pleasant from Lansing?

Mr. Crafard.

I'm not sure.

Mr. Hubert.

Perhaps we can get it by approaching the times. Apparently you left Lansing about an hour and a half after you got there, after you got there about midnight or so, and correct me if I am wrong. We could assume that you left Lansing with a series of short rides which took you 60 miles, approximately 1:30 to 2 o'clock on the morning of the 25th, is that correct?

Mr. Crafard.

Yes, it must have been about that.

Mr. Hubert.

And would you care to estimate for us as to how long it took you with the series of short rides to cover the 60 miles to which you have referred?

Mr. Crafard.

It would be an hour and a half, 2 hours, 2 hours and a half.

Mr. Hubert.

Perhaps it would help if you look at it in this way. Do you remember whether the next long ride that took you into Mount Pleasant you got before or after daylight?

Mr. Crafard.

It was before daylight.

Mr. Hubert.

It was still dark?

Mr. Crafard.

I walked about--where this guy let me off at it was about 5 miles from where there was any light and I walked up where there was light to get a ride.

Mr. Hubert.

I didn't quite understand that.
The man who picked you up 60 miles on the other side of Lansing let you off before light?

Mr. Crafard.

I walked about 5 miles before I got a ride with him.

Mr. Hubert.

Was it light when you got a ride with him?

Mr. Crafard.

I don't believe so. I have lost some time somewhere between leaving Dallas and getting there because I didn't get into Clare until 9:30 at night. It was 9:30 at night when I got into Clare.

Mr. Hubert.

At the present time, you are telling us that you picked up this last long ride took you into Mount Pleasant. Let's find out what time you got into Mount Pleasant, because, you see, you told us you don't know what place it was where you picked up that ride, except that it was somewhat about 60 miles on the other side of Lansing.

Mr. Crafard.

Yes, sir; I didn't get into Clare until, I think it was 9 or 9:30 at night. I've lost at least 8 hours of time.

Mr. Hubert.

Of course I don't know that you have because I don't know what geography or distance we are talking about.

Mr. Crafard.

The distance isn't that great. It only is 15 miles from Mount Pleasant to Clare.

Mr. Hubert.

Let's start this way. What time did you get to Mount Pleasant?

Mr. Crafard.

I think it was about 8:30 at night when I got to Mount Pleasant because it was 9:30, I'm almost positive it was 9 or 9:30 when I got