Mr. Crafard.

I don't remember what his name is. He worked out there for a while. I never did know his name. I don't think he knew my name. He recognized me as having worked out there.

Mr. Hubert.

You were on the highway hitchhiking at that time?

Mr. Crafard.

That's right.

Mr. Hubert.

Did you have a bag?

Mr. Crafard.

Yes.

Mr. Hubert.

How large was it?

Mr. Crafard.

It was a regular satchel and I had another bag.

Mr. Hubert.

What kind of a car was he driving?

Mr. Crafard.

I think he had a 1954 or 1955 Chevy, I believe it was.

Mr. Hubert.

He was alone?

Mr. Crafard.

He had his son with him.

Mr. Hubert.

How old is his son?

Mr. Crafard.

Nine or ten years old, I believe.

Mr. Hubert.

How far did you go with him?

Mr. Crafard.

He took me about 20 or 25 or 30 miles out. It wasn't in Dallas.

Mr. Hubert.

Did you tell him where you were heading?

Mr. Crafard.

Yes; I told him I was going up to Michigan.

Mr. Hubert.

Did you discuss the route to go to Michigan?

Mr. Crafard.

No; I knew the route I wanted.

Mr. Hubert.

Had you looked it up?

Mr. Crafard.

I had been across that route previously and knew.

Mr. Hubert.

Hitchhiking?

Mr. Crafard.

Yes.

Mr. Hubert.

How long before?

Mr. Crafard.

My wife and I left Dallas in 1963. We went up 77 to 66.

Mr. Hubert.

But you weren't hitchhiking then, were you?

Mr. Crafard.

Yes; we hitchhiked. She wouldn't take the bus. I had money for her to take the bus with her and the kids, and she refused to do so.

Mr. Hubert.

You told us earlier you had gone by bus.

Mr. Crafard.

We went part way by bus.

Mr. Hubert.

Which part did you go by bus?

Mr. Crafard.

We went I think from Sacramento, took the bus out.

Mr. Hubert.

You hitchhiked to Sacramento?

Mr. Crafard.

We hitchhiked tO Bakersfield, and picked up a motOrcycle I had there and went on the motorcycle. I worked in California there for about 3 weeks.

Mr. Hubert.

When did you go by bus?

Mr. Crafard.

From Sacramento we took the bus on up to Washington.

Mr. Hubert.

But you hitchhiked the previous time?

Mr. Crafard.

To Bakersfield.

Mr. Hubert.

With your wife?

Mr. Crafard.

Yes.

Mr. Hubert.

And it was at her request? She wanted to hitchhike?

Mr. Crafard.

Yes.

Mr. Hubert.

Rather than go by bus?

Mr. Crafard.

That's right.

Mr. Hubert.

Did she give any reason for that?

Mr. Crafard.

She didn't want to leave me.

Mr. Hubert.

Didn't want to what?

Mr. Crafard.

She didn't want to leave, let me go by myself or something.

Mr. Hubert.

But you said you offered to take her by bus.

Mr. Crafard.

I offered to send her by bus and I'd hitchhike. That is what I figured on doing. I had the money to send her and the two boys, but I didn't have money enough to take the bus myself.

Mr. Hubert.

So the three of you hitchhiked--the four of you hitchhiked?

Mr. Crafard.

That's right.

Mr. Hubert.

There were two young babies and you and your wife?

Mr. Crafard.

That's right.

Mr. Hubert.

Did you have any difficulty with that?

Mr. Crafard.

None whatsoever.