Mr. Hubert.

It was a Dallas station or a Fort Worth station?

Mr. Crafard.

It is one there they call the Dallas-Fort Worth, WWTV12, I think it is.

Mr. Hubert.

KLRD, is that what it is?

Mr. Crafard.

I don't know what station it is. I am not sure whether it was WWTV.

Mr. Hubert.

How long did you stay there watching?

Mr. Crafard.

We turned it up real loud where we could hear it and then listened to his radio, too, where we would hear both of them.

Mr. Hubert.

Go ahead, what happened next?

Mr. Crafard.

I don't recall exactly what was said except the fact that the President had been shot.

Mr. Hubert.

How long did you continue to watch it?

Mr. Crafard.

We watched it right up until--most of the day, I think, we had the television on there, then, most of the day.

Mr. Hubert.

Did you do any of your work?

Mr. Crafard.

Oh, I started to clean up. When Jack come in he said not to. He said, "We're going to close the club for the weekend."

Mr. Hubert.

What time did he come in?

Mr. Crafard.

It was about 2 or 2:30, something like that.

Mr. Hubert.

About 2 hours after, do you think?

Mr. Crafard.

About that; yes.

Mr. Hubert.

Tell us what happened, how he looked, what he said and all that, when he came in?

Mr. Crafard.

He was like everybody else, shocked.

Mr. Hubert.

How did he manifest that shock?

Mr. Crafard.

How is that?

Mr. Hubert.

How did he manifest the shock? What did he do or say that gave you the impression that he was suffering from shock like everybody else?

Mr. Crafard.

About the same thing as any of us said. We couldn't really believe it.

Mr. Hubert.

Was he crying, for example?

Mr. Crafard.

He seemed to be very nervous. As far as really being crying, I couldn't say for sure he had been crying. He wasn't crying at the time, anyway.

Mr. Hubert.

Was his nervousness, or his shock greater than, say, that which you could observe in Armstrong?

Mr. Crafard.

Yes; I believe it was. He was much nervouser than Andy or I, either one was.

Mr. Hubert.

Now, how did that come across to you, by what he said or did?

Mr. Crafard.

It come across that it struck him pretty deep that Kennedy had been assassinated, had been shot.

Mr. Hubert.

You see you have to get that impression from him in one of two ways. Either he said something or he did things, and that is what I want to find out, what he said or he did that creates an impression that now remains in your mind as being one of more shock than anybody else, and as you put it, extreme nervousness. You don't get that impression except what you saw or you heard.

Mr. Crafard.

Yes.

Mr. Hubert.

Now that is what I want to find out, because it is one thing to have your impression but it is another thing to have what caused your impression.

Mr. Crafard.

Yes. He couldn't believe it had happened.

Mr. Hubert.

He said so?

Mr. Crafard.

Yes.

Mr. Hubert.

What else did he do that was out of the ordinary?

Mr. Crafard.

I was trying to think.

Mr. Hubert.

Did he cry? You said a moment ago he did not.

Mr. Crafard.

He said it was an outrageous crime, that it would ruin the city of Dallas.

Mr. Hubert.

Did he say why, in what way it would ruin it?

Mr. Crafard.

The fact that the President had been shot there in Dallas.

Mr. Hubert.

Would ruin it how?