Mr. Crafard.

kind of hard for me to explain it because I haven't got the education to use the words.

Mr. Griffin.

We don't want it--we, the only reason we are taking it this way is because we don't want to put words in your mouth.

Mr. Crafard.

Well, mostly because of the way he talked, his actions.

Mr. Griffin.

Well now, when you went into Jack's apartment, did you see anything in that apartment which would lead you to think that he and George were having homosexual relationships?

Mr. Crafard.

No; just general bachelor apartment more than anything.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you notice that one of the beds had been slept in and the other hadn't, for example?

Mr. Crafard.

I only saw the bed in Jack's room. The other bedroom the door was closed.

Mr. Griffin.

Did Senator have feminine mannerisms?

Mr. Crafard.

Mostly in his speech, at times. It wasn't all the time but at times he would have the mannerisms in his speech, the way he uses his hands.

Mr. Griffin.

Was he giggling or what sort of manners?

Mr. Crafard.

Oh, a lot about the way he laughed. He would get to talking about different things and the way his voice would sound more than anything.

Mr. Griffin.

How about the topics that you heard Jack and Senator talk about. Was there anything about the subjects of conversation that they had which would indicate that they were homosexual or had some sort of.

Mr. Crafard.

No. The only thing I could say along that line was that they was always together, they were together an awful lot.

Mr. Griffin.

All right. Were you able to tell from their relationship whether one of them was performing services for the other whether in the maintenance of the household, for example, one of them was assuming responsibilities or the other wasn't or taking care of clothes or things like that?

Mr. Crafard.

Well, most of the cooking Jack done 90 percent, most of the cooking that was done in the apartment to my knowledge was done by Jack.

Mr. Hubert.

How do you know that?

Mr. Crafard.

Well, on a couple of occasions Senator---Jack was billing Senator out because he had cooked something that he shouldn't have cooked or something, that--and it was something he didn't do very often was cook. I can't remember the name, what, everything what was said or everything. But it was to the fact that he didn't cook anything around the place and when he did cook it, the few times he did cook he would cook it wrong or something.

Mr. Hubert.

And you heard that from having heard Jack remonstrate with him?

Mr. Crafard.

Yes.

Mr. Hubert.

Is it fair to state that except for the specific examples you have given here your impression of both these men, Ruby and Senator concerning their homosexual tendencies, is based upon your experience with other people of that same type.

Mr. Crafard.

That is right.

Mr. Hubert.

Have you any other specifics to mention?

Mr. Crafard.

That would be about the only thing I could think of.

Mr. Hubert.

What would you say of Jack concerning his temper, and his reaction to situations?

Mr. Crafard.

He had an erratic temper.

Mr. Hubert.

What do you mean, give us examples, you know.

Mr. Crafard.

You never knew something that you thought would blow him up might not bother him, something that you thought would not bother him a bit he would blow up about.

Mr. Hubert.

Like what? I mean that must be based upon something that happened.

Mr. Crafard.

Like Andy making a goof with regards to the gifts were supposed to work. They took nights off.

Mr. Hubert.

Well, tell us about that so we have it in the record.

Mr. Crafard.

Well, the first time it happened Jack got pretty mad about The next time it happened, one of the girls was supposed to be there and didn't show up, Jack never said a word.