Mr. Crafard.

The way he talked and his general action.

Mr. Hubert.

Was he effeminate in his method of speaking?

Mr. Crafard.

More or less.

Mr. Hubert.

Did he have a lisp?

Mr. Crafard.

Not that I recall.

Mr. Hubert.

What other physical actions that you observed that you think support or supported your view that he might be homosexual?

Mr. Crafard.

Well, mostly just the way he talked and mostly the way he walked.

Mr. Hubert.

Did he have any activity----

Mr. Crafard.

When I first met him.

Mr. Hubert.

Did he have any activity with his hands or walk or dress?

Mr. Crafard.

That is it, the way a person walks or moves or uses his hands, involve the appearance of this type of person which I have been in contact with quite a few of them in the type of things I have been doing.

Mr. Hubert.

So the overall impression that you had from his speech and from his movement of hands and his walk gave you the impression that he would fit into the category of people who in your experience were homosexuals?

Mr. Crafard.

That is right.

Mr. Hubert.

Did you have occasion to change that view?

Mr. Crafard.

Oh, at the same time I kind of liked him, and I never really went as far as changing that opinion I never really changed it although he had never made any overtures toward me.

Mr. Hubert.

Did you see him make any overtures toward any man?

Mr. Crafard.

Not to my knowledge, not that I ever saw.

Mr. Hubert.

You heard about some, I suppose?

Mr. Crafard.

No; I didn't. I never heard about any cases where he had.

Mr. Hubert.

Did you hear people express the view that he was homosexual?

Mr. Crafard.

Not people that I met after I went to work for him. But this friend of mine that met him the same night I did, him and I were pretty well agreed on the subject that he seemed to be quite that type.

Mr. Hubert.

What was the name of that friend?

Mr. Crafard.

I don't even remember his name. He was a carnival worker, he worked at the carnival.

Mr. Hubert.

It was not one of the owners?

Mr. Crafard.

Just a worker.

Mr. Hubert.

And he was not homosexual himself?

Mr. Crafard.

No, sir; he was a pretty straight kid.

Mr. Hubert.

How do you square that off, that opinion of him, with the fact that he was going out with a girl that you have identified in that Exhibit 5200 A, B, C, D, and E?

Mr. Crafard.

I have known several people of this type that were married and had families.

Mr. Hubert.

In other words, you didn't think that was inconsistent with your former view, your earlier view?

Mr. Crafard.

No; as far as being inconsistent with my knowledge of that type of person it isn't.

Mr. Hubert.

Is it fair to say that your original impression of Ruby that he might be homosexual still persists to this day?

Mr. Crafard.

That is right. Although he was a likable person and I liked him, and I have got one opinion, I don't care, I know for sure if a man is that way if he leaves me alone I can get along fine with him.

Mr. Griffin.

Did he have any friends or acquaintances whom you also thought were homosexuals?

Mr. Crafard.

Yes; he did.

Mr. Griffin.

Which would those people be?

Mr. Crafard.

George Senator, for one. He was the only one of his friends that I met that I really felt that way about.

Mr. Griffin.

Would you describe Senator so that we can understand why you felt he was a homosexual?

Mr. Crafard.

More or less from the way he talked more than anything. It is