Mr. Hubert.

And then he had another bag besides that?

Mr. Turner.

That's right. Something like a traveling kit. Somewhere about 2 inches deep. And we came again Sunday morning, and then we went through the shooting of Oswald, he wasn't in the basement, to my knowledge at this point.

Mr. Hubert.

When did you see him next?

Mr. Turner.

The next time I saw him was approximately 15 minutes after the shooting when I started to our remote truck to pick up a mike line and a camera cable. The doors was being guarded by policemen, who stopped me, and I told them my business; why I wanted to leave the jail, and give them my name and he let me leave.

Mr. Hubert.

That was at the Commerce Street entrance?

Mr. Turner.

Commerce Street entrance. All right, and when I came back in, which was approximately 3 or 4 minutes after, after we got the stuff ready to bring the camera in to take the lineup room, which is in the basement of the jail, well, this officer had him at the door, and he was trying to show him identification from his billfold.

Mr. Hubert.

You don't know who that officer was?

Mr. Turner.

No, sir; I don't. And this man turned to me and said, "That man there can identify me," and I said, "Like hell I can. I don't know who you are or what you are." Or similar to this effect, that I had seen the man, but I didn't know who he was, so, I kept on about my business, because we were pretty rushed at that time, and approximately 15 minutes later I ran onto him in the hallway coming back out the same door, and he said, "Thanks a million," and I said, "WeI1, I don't know you from anyone." I said, "That's why I didn't identify you." Or something to that effect and from that point on, I have never seen the gentleman again.

Mr. Hubert.

Have you made any effort to ascertain who he was?

Mr. Turner.

I have reported this to the Secret Service, Mr. Carter with the Secret Service, and I figured it wasn't any of my business, from that point on.

Mr. Hubert.

You have never seen him since?

Mr. Turner.

No, sir.

Mr. Hubert.

You were at the Ruby trial?

Mr. Tubner.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert.

You never saw that man there?

Mr. Turner.

No, sir.

Mr. Hubert.

Do you know most of the officers of the top officers, at least--of the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. Turner.

I know several. The chief and several of them, by face. I do not know them personally.

Mr. Hubert.

Well, in any case, as far as you know, this man that you have described looks like John Carradine, with the other aspects of the description you have given, wasn't a police officer that you knew to be a police officer?

Mr. Turner.

That's right, sir--as far as I know. I never saw him talking to a police officer or any of them except the one.

Mr. Hubert.

He wasn't at the Ruby trial?

Mr. Turner.

He was never at the Ruby trial. The one officer at the door was the only contact I ever saw him with a police officer, and that was when he was, to my knowledge, trying to----

Mr. Hubert.

You remember any other facial characteristics about him, for instance, the color of his hair, or the way he wore his hair, or did he need a haircut, or was he----

Mr. Turner.

He was a typical man. I didn't pay much attention to the haircut, but I'm pretty sure it was dark hair, black hair.

Mr. Hubert.

Did he have any sears, or identifiable marks?

Mr. Turner.

He did not have scars, but Just wrinkles of age, like Carradine does.

Mr. Hubert.

How old a man would he have been, do you think?

Mr. Turner.

Between 40 and 50, is my guess, but he had some wrinkles on his face. He was thin-jawed like.

Mr. Hubert.

What color eyes?