Mr. Graves.

of the detectives had walked down the ramp and Ruby walked in with them, and I heard that he probably had a pass.

Mr. Griffin.

And----

Mr. Graves.

Press pass, and he used that on one of the officers at the door to get in. You can hear everything.

Mr. Griffin.

When did you first hear the rumor that he had walked down the Main Street ramp?

Mr. Graves.

Well, I can't remember. Just some time that day after we got back there from the hospital.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you hear it before or after the other rumors that you are relating?

Mr. Graves.

That was the first one that I heard, really.

Mr. Griffin.

That he walked down the Main Street ramp?

Mr. Graves.

That he walked down the ramp when that squad car drove out.

Mr. Griffin.

And people came out of Captain Fritz' office, who had been talking with Ruby, did you hear anything coming out of Captain Fritz' office as to how Ruby got in?

Mr. Graves.

No; sure didn't.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you ever learn from any of the detectives who had been talking to Ruby in Captain Fritz' office how Ruby got into the jail basement?

Mr. Graves.

Well, let's see. I don't know who it was, that told me how he (Ruby) got in. Now, Captain Fritz later told us that he asked Ruby how he got in there and he told him, I believe it was, at that time that he would rather not discuss that.

Mr. Griffin.

All right. And did Captain Fritz tell you this shortly after this interview that Fritz was having with Ruby?

Mr. Graves.

It was some time after the interview. And I don't remember exactly when, but it was some time after he had talked with him. Maybe the second time, I don't know, but it was some time after he had told him, and they told----

Mr. Griffin.

Now, at the time that Ruby--at the time that you learned from Fritz that Ruby didn't want to talk about how he got in this basement, had you already heard that Ruby came down the ramp?

Mr. Graves.

Yes.

Mr. Griffin.

Had you already heard the other rumors which you have related?

Mr. Graves.

Yes.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you later hear from Captain Fritz, or any other police officer that he had talked with Ruby and Ruby had said something about how he got in----

Mr. Graves.

I didn't hear that from Captain Fritz that I know of.

Mr. Griffin.

But, from any other police officer?

Mr. Graves.

Something to the effect that he told somebody how he got in there, but I never did find out the straight of that. They had started a full scale investigation in terms of what happened in the basement at that time. Nobody was telling anybody anything so I just dropped it.

Mr. Griffin.

About what time did they----

Mr. Graves.

I don't know exactly when they started that, but, they started trying to find out what happened, and I am sure, immediately.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you ever talk with Officer Dean, as far as you can remember?

Mr. Graves.

I didn't discuss it with Officer Dean at all.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you ever talk with Officer McMillon?

Mr. Graves.

No.

Mr. Griffin.

Or Officer Clardy?

Mr. Graves.

Can we go off the record?

Mr. Griffin.

Yes.
(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Griffin.

On the record for this. Is there anything that we haven't covered in connection with the murder of Lee Oswald, including how Ruby got into the basement, or things that might shed some light upon Ruby's motive or possible associates that he might have had that you could tell the Commission?