Mr. Graves.

I have never in my entire time at that police station seen Jack Ruby in the police station. Now, it is possible Jack was down there. I know he has been in jail, but to say that he, like some people do hang around the police station, I have never seen him do that, and I have worked all hours. That still doesn't mean that he couldn't have been coming in there. However, with someone that worked opposite hours to me and I wouldn't see him, but during the time that I have been there I have never seen him hanging around the police station. You know, speculation is, is that he is a friend of the police and so forth. He might have done some policeman some favor, I don't know that to be true, so, it would be speculating on my part to say that he was.

Mr. Griffin.

HOW long did you remain at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. Graves.

0h, I'd hate to say this for the record, not seeing my report. Until he died. This in the basement happened about 11:10, or 11:19, and we reached Parkland a few minutes after. He was pronounced dead at I something.

Mr. Griffin.

I don't really care about the exact time. We are going to get the time records and check it out there but what I am trying to establish is when you learned that he was dead, what did you do?

Mr. Graves.

Well, of course, we made arrangements to get the pathologist up there and maintaining guards over him, even during the time he was in the morgue. We discussed that, and then Clardy and Brown were charged with that responsibility, and I changed clothes and me and Leavelle, I believe me and Leavelle came back to city hall with Officer Burgess.

Mr. Griffin.

About what time would you say he got back to the city hall?

Mr. Graves.

Well, again, I wouldn't want to say definitely. I think somewhere around 2:30 or 3:45, somewhere in that vicinity.

Mr. Griffin.

Up to the time that you got back to city hall, had you heard anything about how Ruby might have gotten into the basement?

Mr. Graves.

No; I hadn't, sure hadn't. Of course, everyone was wondering at that point how it happened and how he got in there, but I hadn't heard anything at that point. Hadn't seen or been around anybody except those that I went out there with and they didn't know any more than I did.

Mr. Griffin.

When you got back to the police department, what did you do?

Mr. Graves.

I went back to the office, of course.

Mr. Griffin.

Homicide bureau?

Mr. Graves.

Homicide bureau.

Mr. Griffin.

Who was there at the time?

Mr. Graves.

Well, frankly, I don't remember who all were in the office. I know Jack Ruby was in Captain Fritz' office talking with him.

Mr. Griffin.

Who else was in Captain Fritz' office at the time?

Mr. Graves.

I don't know, frankly. That window blind was open there and I could see Jack Ruby, and I could see Captain Fritz and some other people were in there, but just who, I don't know.

Mr. Griffin.

Now, was Jack Ruby fully clothed at the time?

Mr. Graves.

I believe they had already put some white clothes on him, jail clothes, taken his suit off of him.

Mr. Griffin.

Now, did you go into Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. Graves.

No; I didn't. I didn't see Jack Ruby anymore until they transferred him to the county.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you talk to any police officer that day about how Ruby got into the jail?

Mr. Graves.

As I say, I just heard rumors going around, and at this point I don't really remember who related it to me, but---there was rumors that he----

Mr. Griffin.

Do you remember as you got back there what the first rumor was that you heard circulating?

Mr. Graves.

Yes; that he slipped in the basement by a squad car when they drove out the north ramp.

Mr. Griffin.

You heard this when you got back to the----

Mr. Graves.

Sometime after I got back. Just exactly when, I don't know, but that got around shortly after. I could have been 2 or 3 hours later, I don't know.

Mr. Griffin.

What was the next rumor that you heard?

Mr. Graves.

Well, I don't know. I heard that Chief Batchelor and a couple