Mr. Hubert.

Did you ever see Jack Ruby standing by that concrete .or marble what do you call it?

Mr. Vaughn.

Slab there.

Mr. Hubert.

Standing by that slab there where. Daniels was?

Mr. Vaughn.

No, sir.

Mr. Hubert.

Was there anybody else with Daniels ?

Mr. Vaughn.

No; not that I recall seeing that morning. Now, Daniels worked up there around approximately 2 or 3 feet--he was there quite some time and during the morning there were several people that would walk by the Main Street entrance and they would look in, more or less curiosity seekers more than anything else. There were very few that actually stopped and there was one particular man that did stop that I recall--I don't know his name. He was on the left of the ramp which would be toward the Harwood Street side. He used to be a shine boy in the basement of the city hall.

Mr. Hubert.

Do you remember some city hall janitorial workers, particularly a man by the name of Fuqua--did you see any people dressed in janitorial uniforms pass by?

Mr. Vaughn.

As I recall, I seen some men walk down the street there and look in the ramp and they walked on.

Mr. Hubert.

Which way were they coming from ?

Mr. Vaughn.

I believe they were coming from the east.

Mr. Hubert.

That is what direction ?

Mr. Vaughn.

From Pearl--towards Harwood.

Mr. Hubert.

They just passed by?

Mr. Vaughn.

They would have hesitated for just a minute.

Mr. Hubert.

Do you recall how long before the shooting they passed by?

Mr. Vaughn.

I would just have to estimate just an estimate I would say it was probably 15 or 20 minutes, something like that.

Mr. Hubert.

Do you think it would have been possible for anyone to enter the basement who was approaching the Main Street ramp from Pearl Street or the Western Union direction, while the Pierce car was exiting ?

Mr. Vaughn.

No; I don't believe it would.

Mr. Hubert.

And why do you say that?

Mr. Vaughn.

Because--due to the fact--the time, the period of time like I said, I had a view of the ramp from the period of time the car actually come out, and I waved it on and walked back to the ramp.

Mr. Hubert.

Now, you know, of course, that Ruby says that's the way he got in?

Mr. Vaughn.

Yes, I realize that.

Mr. Hubert.

What is your opinion about that statement?

Mr. Vaughn.

I don't believe he did.

Mr. Hubert.

You think he got in some other way ?

Mr. Vaughn.

I don't know definitely, but I'll say he didn't come in at the ramp. How he got in--that, I don't know, but I know--I don't believe that he came in the ramp.

Mr. Hubert.

Is it your opinion beyond any reasonable doubt, and I think you are familiar with that phrase as an officer, aren't you ?

Mr. Vaughn.

Yes.

Mr. Hubert.

That Ruby did not enter the basement through the ramp while you were there?

Mr. Vaughn.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert.

Is that opinion so strong that if you were a juror, for example, you would convict a man or acquit him, whichever it would be, on the basis of your statement that he did not enter at that ramp?

Mr. Vaughn.

Well, now, What do you mean by that?

Mr. Hubert.

That's the reasonable doubt test, you see.

Mr. Vaughn.

You mean as far as I am concerned--as far as what I think about it, that I definitely do not think the man come down that ramp.

Mr. Hubert.

But I was testing the strength of your view.

Mr. Vaughn.

Well, I don't quite understand or follow you?

Mr. Hubert.

Well, here's what I had in mind--I'll put it this way--do you have the moral conviction that Jack Ruby did not enter the basement through