Mr. Griffin.

Didn't he talk about that by the time you got back to the juvenile bureau?

Mr. Cutchshaw.

I don't remember whether he talked about it; he just said that he remembered seeing this man come out and this gun come up, and he described to me, but as far as him saying he was worried about it, I don't remember that. As far as any reflection on himself

Mr. Griffin.

I was not trying to talk particularly about whether Blackie saw Jack there a few minutes ago. Honestly, I don't care to know if that is true, but to me, that is no reflection on him. But it is very important for us to find out what happened, because if we don't know what happened, we have to speculate and wonder whether there was somebody else involved here.

Mr. Cutchshaw.

Well, let me tell you; I came down here. A lot of people say I need a lawyer, but I don't want one because I came down to tell you the truth and just the way I saw it. I told you what I saw. Of course, some of my time elements are a little bit this way, but I said what I saw, and the only thing I did tell you--

Mr. Griffin.

I want you to tell me, and this is what is important, what you feel at this point, what your motivation, unconscious or conscious, is in this, and I don't expect you to tell me that Blackie thought that he saw the man or anybody else, but I want to know if you feel that what you have told me today in such a determined and what appeared to me forthright fashion, is based, is affected in any way because of the concern of anybody in the juvenile bureau, about Harrison and Lowery and Miller and anybody else in the bureau who was down there, and in particular to have seen Ruby if he came in ?

Mr. Cutchshaw.

I believe that if Blackie Harrison had seen Ruby come in, he would have put him out.

Mr. Griffin.

Now, to what extent, I want to know, do you think that this concern of your affects your story, honestly?

I could tell this story and honestly believe everything I am telling, but yet we all know unconsciously our emotions are affected.
How much are you being affected by that concern of Harrison ?

Mr. Cutchshaw.

None of my story or anything I have told you has been affected in any way for any concern for any one person in the department. I came down here to tell you this, and everything is just the way I saw it. And as far as concern for any one individual, I don't have any. Now, Blackie is a friend of mine, and I have known him for a long time. I have no concern for him, because I don't think he did anything wrong. And I think if he had seen the man, he would have put him out.

Mr. Griffin.

Even if he had seen and hadn't put him out?

Mr. Cutchshaw.

Even if he had seen and hadn't put him out, then he did the wrong thing.

Mr. Griffin.

And you think he would have been disciplined for that, too, don't you?

Mr. Cutchshaw.

I believe he would be disciplined for that, too, and he would be, if he had seen the man and hadn't put him out.

Mr. Griffin.

Do you think that if Blackie knew that he wouldn't be disciplined for this, and if somebody were to tell him now that he wouldn't be disciplined and it wouldn't be made known to anybody in the public or even anybody in the police department, and it actually turned out Blackie did see this guy, do you think Blackie would tell us about that?

Mr. Cutchshaw.

I believe he would. Blackie is an honest man. In fact, the way it is right now, if he had saw the man, I believe he would tell you he had.

Mr. Griffin.

You heard the story that Blackie had taken some sort of medicine before he took that lie detector test?

Mr. Cutchshaw.

No; I haven't.

Mr. Griffin.

You haven't heard that story?

Mr. Cutchshaw.

No.

Mr. Griffin.

You are concerned, I take it, about the department, though you said you are not concerned about any particular man in the department, but you are concerned about the department?