Mr. Jenner.

went to Russia, any attempted surrender by him of his citizenship at that time voluntarily?

Mrs. Gibson.

No; I don't recall that he did say anything about voluntarily giving up his citizenship; no. He might have. I don't recall that.

Mr. Jenner.

Was there any discussion as to how he met Marina; and their courtship and marriage?

Mrs. Gibson.

There was. I don't remember too much of it. I think he met her in Minsk. I believe he was working there at a factory that manufactured television chassis, and he met her, I don't know exactly how. I think he met her when he was sick in the hospital. I don't know what was wrong with him. And they I guess went out from there, and I guess, I don't know how long they went out, and they got married.

Mr. Jenner.

When you say "went out" you meant began to date?

Mrs. Gibson.

Dating; yes. I don't know exactly what you do in Russia. And I think she wanted to come to the United States very badly.

Mr. Jenner.

Would you elaborate on that, calling of course on your recollection of what was said which gave you these impressions? That is, what you learned from her or from conversations with him in her presence?

Mrs. Gibson.

No; I guess this was rather hearsay. I think she told this to my stepmother in conversation, that she wanted very much to come to the United States to make a better life for herself, that she wasn't very much interested in politics, just in a better place to live. Supposedly this is the reason she married Lee.

Mr. Jenner.

That was your impression in any event?

Mrs. Gibson.

This is what I was told, yes.

Mr. Jenner.

Nothing occurred during the period of time that you had this acquaintanceship with the Oswalds that disabused you of that impression?

Mrs. Gibson.

No; and I wouldn't say there was a tremendous amount of love lost between them.

Mr. Jenner.

Between Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Gibson.

That is right. They quarreled quite a lot.

Mr. Jenner.

Would you tell us about this lack of rapport between Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Gibson.

Well, they fought quite a bit. They fought in Russian, always verbally when I saw them, but when she was living with Mrs. Hall in Fort Worth, I was told that he beat her up on numerous occasions, physically assaulted her, and that Mrs. Hall and her, oh, I don't know what you would call him, her fiance, Alex--

Mr. Jenner.

Is that Alex, Alexander Kleinlerer?

Mrs. Gibson.

I guess so. I don't know his name.

Mr. Jenner.

Describe him to us.

Mrs. Gibson.

Describe him?

Mr. Jenner.

Physically.

Mrs. Gibson.

He was short, very dark, moustache, black moustache, European dresser, an accent, very much the gangster type in his looks, very oily looking, very oily in personality, actually a rather creepy customer. He spoke Russian fluently. I think he spoke quite a few languages fluently. He, I believe, was born or originated in Paris. I have no idea what his occupation was. But he did not get along with Lee at all. He had numerous arguments with him over Marina and how he beat her.

Mr. Jenner.

Did any of this occur in your presence?

Mrs. Gibson.

One afternoon he was telling Lee off very, very--

Mr. Jenner.

Tell us where this occurred?

Mrs. Gibson.

This occurred in Mrs. Hall's home in Fort Worth.

Mr. Jenner.

You were present?

Mrs. Gibson.

And my husband; we were both present.

Mr. Jenner.

And who else please?

Mrs. Gibson.

Mrs. Hall and Marina were in the other room. Lee and Alex, and he was telling Lee off in no uncertain terms about how he beat up Marina, and about his whole outlook on life. He was really giving him a tongue lashing.

Mr. Jenner.

And what response did he obtain from Lee?