Mrs. Gibson.

the police force or anything like that, or in your Army, Navy, Marines or whatever he was in.

Mr. Jenner.

Were there discussions between your husband and him on these subjects?

Mrs. Gibson.

Yes; quite frequently. They argued a lot about it.

Mr. Jenner.

Was there any discussion--you say he wanted to be the highest paid, he wanted to be the leader and that sort of thing. Did your husband raise with him any necessity on his part to qualify himself for those positions and that high pay?

Mrs. Gibson.

Well, my husband told him you can't be something for nothing. He said you can't expect to get high pay and receive a good position with no education and no ambition, no particular goal, no anything. Well, he just expected a lot for nothing.

Mr. Jenner.

You have the impression that he was not an ambitious person, ambitious in the sense of willing to devote himself to an objective and work toward something?

Mrs. Gibson.

No; I don't think he knew what he wanted.

Mr. Jenner.

As distinguished from just being given to him or falling in his lap?

Mrs. Gibson.

No; I don't think he knew what he wanted, and I don't think he was too interested in working toward anything. He expected things to be just given to him on a silver platter. But in his ideas, he was extremely devoted.

Mr. Jenner.

He was devoted to his concepts?

Mrs. Gibson.

To his ideas as to how he thought. You couldn't change his mind no matter what you said to him.

Mr. Jenner.

He was rigid in his views then?

Mrs. Gibson.

Very, very rigid in his ideas.

Mr. Jenner.

What did he say about Russia during these periods when you had these discussions?

Mrs. Gibson.

Well, he said he was very disappointed in Russia. Russia was not what he thought it would be. It was not the ideal place, that Communism was not the ideal government, that he disliked Communism just as he disliked capitalism, that he disliked Russia very much.

Mr. Jenner.

Did he tell you about his life in Russia? You were curious about it and your husband too, I assume?

Mrs. Gibson.

Yes; he told us bits and pieces about it, and then of course he gave us a manuscript to read. He told us quite a bit about Russia, yes.

Mr. Jenner.

Would you please state what you recall as to what he said in that connection?

Mrs. Gibson.

Well, I can't recall any specific thing. I recall that he said he was quite sick over there; this didn't hold too well. He said he was treated with a little more deference than the next ordinary Russian person because he was American, that he had a terrific time leaving Russia, and that it scared him very much.

Mr. Jenner.

You mean terrific in the sense of difficulty?

Mrs. Gibson.

A very difficult time. I think he said it took him a year to be able to get out of Russia. He almost didn't make it. It scared him very much. He was supposed to give over his citizenship and become a citizen of Russia to be able to work there, but he didn't do this, and he was still able to work there. He didn't know why exactly, but they allowed him to work there anyway. But they kept pressuring him to give up his citizenship to be able to work in Russia, get working papers.

Mr. Jenner.

Tell us more about that. Tell us everything you remember as to what he said about the fact that they pressured him to give up his citizenship so he could stay in Russia and work.

Mrs. Gibson.

Well, I don't know how you consider pressuring him. They kept suggesting that he should give up his citizenship to be able to work in Russia; otherwise, why was he there? If he was there obviously he wanted to become a Russian. To be able to work in Russia you were supposed to be a Russian citizen. You had to give up your citizenship. And he kept objecting to this. I guess he was scared. He didn't really want to go as far as giving up his American citizenship.

Mr. Jenner.

Did he say anything about his course of conduct when he first