Mr. Paine.

I didn't think. It remained in the package--nothing jelled. I think I thought about it more than once because my thoughts didn't hold together enough.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did it rattle at all when you moved it?

Mr. Paine.

No; it didn't rattle.

Mr. Liebeler.

Now----

Mr. Paine.

I kind of rejected the shovel idea because that was not, that was two symmetrical.

Mr. Liebeler.

What was too symmetrical?

Mr. Paine.

The shovel the shaft and the blade of the shovel are symmetrical, the shaft is on the center line of the shovel and here this wider area had to be offset somehow.

Mr. Liebeler.

You said you thought it was about 30 inches long?

Mr. Paine.

No; I am just telling you, I picked up a package which I first thought camping equipment, heavy iron pipes, and then I tried, then later, maybe when I had left. I tried to think, well, what kind of camping equipment has that little stub on it that goes off at an angle or asymmetric like that, and the flat end down there and I tried to put a shovel in there to fill out the bag, and with the camping equipment, to the shape of the thing.
I never--I didn't put these in words, they were just kind of thoughts in the back part of my mind. I wasn't particularly curious about it. I just had to move this object and I think I have told you about the full extent of my thinking.

Mr. Liebeler.

How long would you estimate the package to be?

Mr. Paine.

The package was about that long. That is 40 inches long.

Mr. Liebeler.

Let's get a ruler and have you indicate. Would you indicate Mr. Paine, on the edge of the desk here approximately how long you think the package was and then I will measure what you have indicated.

Mr. Paine.

I guess about that. That is including the blanket.

Mr. Liebeler.

The witness has indicated a length of 37 1/2 inches.

Mr. Paine.

You had two twelves. All right.

Mr. Liebeler.

Now, you say that was including the blanket, what do you mean by that?

Mr. Paine.

Well, the blanket was wrapped around the end of it.

Mr. Liebeler.

Was it wrapped tightly?

Mr. Paine.

Pretty snug.

Mr. Liebeler.

When you moved it did you have the impression that there might have been any paper inside of it?

Mr. Paine.

No; I would have said no; I didn't have that impression. Nothing crinkled, no sound.

Mr. Liebeler.

And you moved it several times?

Mr. Paine.

Yes.

Mr. Liebeler.

Was there any indication by a crinkling or otherwise that there might be paper wrapped inside the blanket?

Mr. Paine.

That is right.

Mr. Liebeler.

Now, you said before that you had thought that they didn't make camping equipment out of iron anymore. What do you mean by that?

Mr. Paine.

Well, I had had camping equipment, of course, camping equipment we had was a tent with iron pipes.

Mr. Liebeler.

What prompted you to think of that thought in connection with this particular package?

Mr. Paine.

I suppose it was the--I had a .22 when I was a kid.

Mr. Liebeler.

A .22 caliber rifle?

Mr. Paine.

Yes; I had two of them. I kept that in better condition, I mean, this was a rustic looking blanket, it looked as though it had been kicked around. It was dusty, and it seemed to me it was wrapped with a twine or something tied up with a twine. So I thought of, it looked to me like the kind of blanket I had used for a bed roll on the ground.
I suppose that is the thought that started me thinking in the line of camping equipment. And then I suppose I must have felt, I felt a pipe, at least, and maybe some sense of there being more than one pipe but I drew that picture