Mr. Liebeler.

Tell us about the seminar, Doctor. How did it come that you gave this seminar on Oswald, to whom was it given, what was the general subject matter of the seminar?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; every Monday afternoon, at 1:30 until 3 o'clock, the professional Youth House staff gets together in order to discuss an interesting or unusual child. At that time we selected Oswald because of the reason which I indicated, the discrepancy between the charge and the seriousness of his personality disturbance, and the seminar was opened by the Youth House director; then the social worker talked about the development, background and early history of the child; then the Youth House recreation department and household talked, and then the school department gave a report; then the Psychologist reported on his findings, and then I acquainted the people who were present with the findings of the psychiatrist and recommendations which I made to the court.

Mr. Liebeler.

Whose suggestion was it that Oswald be used as a subject matter for the seminar?
Dr. HARTOGS. I believe it was mine, because I was the one to select these children.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any report of the proceedings of the seminar prepared?
Dr. HARTOGS. No; it is all spontaneous.

Mr. Liebeler.

Just a spontaneous, informal sort of thing?
Dr. HARTOGS. That is right.

Mr. Liebeler.

No one made any memorandum of what occurred at that time?
Dr. HARTOGS. No.

Mr. Liebeler.

Do you have any records relating to the seminar?
Dr. HARTOGS. No; there are never any records, never anything written down; it is purely informal.

Mr. Liebeler.

The only writings that would have been at the seminar would have been the reports that had been previously prepared by you and by the other members of the Youth House staff; is that correct?
Dr. HARTOGS. Right.

Mr. Liebeler.

Do you recall what recommendation you made to the court in respect of Oswald?
Dr. HARTOGS. If I can recall correctly, I recommended that this youngster should be committed to an institution.

Mr. Liebeler.

What type of institution, do you recall?
Dr. HARTOGS. No; that I don't recall. No.

Mr. Liebeler.

But you are quite clear in your recollection that you recommended that he be institutionalized immediately because of the personality pattern disturbance; is that correct?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; that is right. That I remember; yes.

Mr. Liebeler.

How long did Oswald stay at the Youth House, do you know?
Dr. HARTOGS. Not exactly. Not exactly. Anything from 4 to 8 weeks, that is the average stay.

Mr. Liebeler.

The Youth House is a place the basic function of which is observation of children in a controlled environment; would you say?
Dr. HARTOGS. Controlled environment for the purpose of psychiatric observation or for the purpose of detention pending court appearance, or custodial care of the child pending his commitment, I mean his actual transfer to a child-caring or custodial institution such as a training school. These are the three purposes.

Mr. Liebeler.

The Youth House is not the kind of place where a boy would be kept indefinitely after he had been committed, or something like that?
Dr. HARTOGS. No, the average is about 2 to 3 months; I mean 3 months is maximum.

Mr. Liebeler.

Can you recall what kind of institution you recommended that Oswald be committed to?
Dr. HARTOGS. I never make a recommendation as to the name, the specific institution. This is a prerogative of the court.

Mr. Liebeler.

Do you make a recommendation as to the type of institution to which you recommend a child?