I now show you Commission Exhibit No. 845 which is a photograph, and ask you to state for the record what that photograph represents?
Dr. OLIVIER. This has been adopted as standard military ammunition of the U.S. Army. It is known as the NATO round. It is M-80 ball fired in the M-14 rifle. It has a different--it is a full jacketed military bullet but has a different point, what they call a no jag point, a sharp point. It has tumbling characteristics. When it goes in a certain block it tumbles. and does the same in the body. It is more efficient in producing wounds than the bullet under study.

Mr. Specter.

How do the impact, penetration, and other characteristics of the bullet depicted in 845 compare with the Western Cartridge Co. bullet fired from the Mannlicher-Carcano in 844?
Dr. OLIVIER It has better wounding potential due to the quicker tumbling but it would not have as good penetrating ability, when it starts tumbling and releasing all that energy doing all that damage it comes to a stop in a shorter distance.

Mr. Specter.

Would the Western bullet be characterized as having the qualities of a more stable bullet?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; it would. You mean in the target?

Mr. Specter.

Yes, sir.
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.

Mr. Specter.

The stability in the air would be the same for any missile, would it not?
Dr. OLIVIER. To be a good bullet they should be stable in air in order to hit what you are aiming at, yes.

Mr. Specter.

Then would the characteristics of stability in the air be the same for either of the two bullets you have heretofore referred to?
Dr. OLIVIER. Essentially so.

Mr. Specter.

I now hand you photograph marked as Commission Exhibit No. 846 and ask you to state what that depicts?
Dr. OLIVIER. This is a 257 Winchester Roberts soft nose hunting bullet. This one pictured fired from right to left instead of left to right and the bullet didn't even go out of the block. It deforms almost immediately on entering the block and releases its energy rather rapidly. This type of ammunition is illegal for military use. We are just studying the wounding characteristics of various bullets, but this is not a military bullet.

Mr. Specter.

How does it compare with the Western bullet?
Dr. OLIVIER. It would be better for wounding, better for hunting purposes. But as I said, it isn't acceptable as a military bullet.

Mr. Specter.

How does it compare with respect to penetration power?
Dr. OLIVIER. Much less than the Mannlicher-Carcano.

Mr. Specter.

In the normal course of the work that you perform for the U.S. Army at Edgewood Arsenal, do you have occasion to simulate substances for testing purposes on determining the path of a bullet through the human body?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; we do use animal tissues or gelatin as simulants for tissues of the human body.

Mr. Specter.

Has the autopsy report on President John F. Kennedy been made available to you for your review?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; it has.

Mr. Specter.

And subsequent to your review of that report, did you make an effort to simulate the body tissue through which the bullet is reported to have passed through the President in accordance with the report of the autopsy surgeon; entering on the rear of his neck, 14 cm. below the mastoid process and 14 cm. to the left of the right acromion process, passing through a fascia channel, striking the trachea and exiting through the lower anterior of the neck?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I did.

Mr. Specter.

What substance did you prepare to simulate that portion of the President's body?
Dr. OLIVIER. We determined the distance on various people by locating this anatomical region and using people of various sizes we found that regardless of general body build, the distance penetrated was around 13 1/2 to 14 1/2 cm.
As a consequence, I used gelatin blocks 20 percent gelatin cut at 13 1/2 cm.

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