(Testimony of Abram Chayes Resumed)
Mr. Chayes.
But it would also have had the determination that he had to expatriate himself and that he was an American citizen. I, myself, doubt that an abortive attempt at expatriation would, certainly without more, warrant the denial of a passport to a person who was in fact a citizen.
Representative Ford.
And a person who in his application in June of 1963, indicated he wanted to return to the Soviet Union?
Mr. Chayes.
One of the places he wanted to travel to was Russia. I think if you add those two together, and all you have is his intention to travel to Russia, and the fact that he made an abortive attempt to expatriate himself in Russia sometime before, I don't think you have the basis for a finding in terms of regulation that persons, activities abroad would "violate the laws of the Sates, be prejudicial to the orderly conduct of foreign relations or otherwise be prejudicial to the interests of the United States." I think you have got the basis for a finding that this is not a very attractive fellow, but I don't see how you can bring him within any of those categories on the basis of the evidence in the file.
Mr. Dulles.
Is it not correct though that when you were trying to get the visa for Mrs. Oswald, you made a very strong case that his continued residence in the Soviet Union was harmful to the foreign policy of the United States, or words to that effect?
Mr. Chayes.
Well, we were very anxious to get him back and I think that is right. In a sense we had him on our hands then. We were in discussion with him. He was in the Embassy and he was very directly our responsibility, so that anything that he did or that went wrong during that period, he was under our protection and we were necessarily involved.
If he went back as a tourist and got into some trouble of some kind or another, we would then have the choice I think to get involved, and we might or might not. The situation it seems to me is different when a fellow is already in trouble and you have taken steps to put the U.S. Embassy in the picture. Then you have a special responsibility if anything goes off the track and you want to take whatever steps you can to shorten the time in which you are bearing that special responsibility.
Representative Ford.
I think, Mr. Chayes, however, you are saying or you are inferring that it was a clear-cut decision back when it was determined that he had not given up his United States citizenship.
Mr. Chayes.
It was in July of 1961, when his passport was renewed. We couldn't have had a passport renewal if there weren't such a determination, and in fact there was such a determination.
Representative Ford.
There was such a determination?
Mr. Chayes.
Yes, sir.
Representative Ford.
That is correct, but it was not a clear-cut case when you look at the steps that he, Lee Harvey Oswald, tried to take.
Mr. Chayes.
Well, I don't know----
Representative Ford.
It was a determination, but it was not one that was absolutely all black or white.
Mr. Chayes.
No, but once you make the decision on the basis of whatever is before you, he is either a citizen or he is not a citizen, and I think he is a citizen, or was a citizen.
Representative Ford.
But the fact that the matter was administratively investigated ought to, I would think under your new regulations, when he applies to go back to the country where he originally sought citizenship, there ought to be some real investigation, and I am surprised that you say that under those regulations, under these facts, he probably would still be given a passport.
Mr. Chayes.
I agree with the first part of your statement, that under the new regulations, as we have developed them in the light of hindsight, there' would be a further investigation.
Representative Ford.
But you also said----
Mr. Chayes.
And I think there should.
Representative Ford.
He would then be given his passport again despite the new regulation.
Mr. Chayes.
But if the investigation turned up no more than what was in the file with respect to his purposes for travel abroad, if we didn't have some hard
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