Mr. Chayes.

And as you say, when you got all the facts as in the expatriation situation, you might determine that he had not expatriated himself.

Representative Ford.

At least in this case if there had been a lookout card, there would have been a delay.

Mr. Chayes.

Yes.

Representative Ford.

That is the very least that would have happened.

Mr. Chayes.

There would have been a delay of a couple of days probably.

Representative Ford.

And in this case time might have been important.

Mr. Chayes.

No; if you are talking about this case as it actually happened, time wasn't important at all. He applied for the passport in June of 1963. He got it in June of 1963, and he made no effort to use the passport, nor did he have any occasion to use it, until he died.

Mr. Dulles.

It would have been a blessing for us if he had used it, say, in the sense that the assassination might not have taken place, if he had taken the passport and gone to China as he may have contemplated.

Mr. Coleman.

Mr. Chayes, is it your testimony that when the Department knows a person went abroad in 1959, attempted to defect to the Soviet Union, stated that he had information on radar which he was going to turn over to the Soviet, and the difficulty that we had to get him back, it is your opinion that it would not be prejudicial to the interests of the United States for him to be given a passport to go abroad the second time?

Mr. Chayes.

Well, I think that is correct without knowing any more about what he intended to do this time on his travels abroad.
You have got to remember that the discretion that the Secretary can exercise under 51.136, is as the Supreme Court said in the Kent case, a limited discretion, although it is phrased in very broad terms.
For example, we have people who are going abroad all the time and making the nastiest kinds of speeches about the United States, or who go abroad for political activity that is completely at odds with the policy of the United States, and may be even directed against our policy. But we could not deny a passport on the grounds of political activities, political associations, speech, things of that kind. So the Kent case says, as I read it and as most others do. I think you have to, in order to apply this section, there are some fairly regular categories, fugitives from justice.

Mr. Dulles.

Just one question. If there had been a lookout card in, and then you would reconsider the case in June 1963, when he applied, would you not then normally have notified the FBI and the CIA that here was a returned defector?

Mr. Chayes.

No.

Mr. Dulles.

Who was going abroad again?

Mr. Chayes.

No; not unless the FBI and the CIA had asked us to notify them. However, what we might have done would be to use FBI facilities to make a further investigation of the situation. That is possible.

Mr. Coleman.

Mr. Chayes informed us prior to the commencement of his testimony that he would have to leave at 4 p.m., but would return tomorrow morning to complete it. He will now be excused. Thank you, sir.

Mr. Dulles.

Thank you very much.

John A. McVickar

Testimony of Resumed

Mr. Coleman.

Do you recall, Mr. McVickar, we were trying to determine whether Mrs. Oswald came into the Embassy in July or in August 1961, and you said that if you had an opportunity to look at' the State Department file that you might find something which would aid you in recollecting. Have you had such opportunity.

Mr. Mcvickar.

Yes; I have. I observe two items in here. There is a despatch prepared by Mr. Snyder which says that Mrs. Oswald was expected to come in very shortly. This despatch was prepared I believe on the same day that Mr. Oswald was in the office.

Mr. Coleman.

Is that despatch dated July 11, 1961?

Mr. Mcvickar.

Yes.