Mr. Dulles.

Mr. Murray, do you have any questions?

Mr. Murray.

I don't believe I have, Mr. Commissioner, but I would like to mention this off the record, if I may.
(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Eisenberg.

We have now the ultraviolet machine set up. Could you just show us the difference in fluorescence?

Mr. Cadigan.

Yes.

Mr. Eisenberg.

Can you explain what you have set up here, Mr. Cadigan?

Mr. Cadigan.

This is a portable ultraviolet viewer I used to examine the papers and I think probably what is most noticeable is in the manila tapes. The tape on the right is the sample secured November 22. The tape at the top is from the bag 142, and then the one in the, you might say, lower left, toward the bottom, is the tape that was secured December 1.

Mr. Eisenberg.

You are referring to positions in the bottom of the ultraviolet machine?

Mr. Cadigan.

Yes; relative position.

Mr. Dulles.

The one at the left is the one taken from the paper sack, isn't it?

Mr. Cadigan.

Top left; yes; that would be from 142.

Mr. Dulles.

142, and the other is----

Mr. Cadigan.

The one on the right is 677.

Mr. Dulles.

What am I supposed to see?

Mr. Cadigan.

A difference in the appearance, difference in color.

Mr. Dulles.

What do you mean? I see the violet and I see the white.

Mr. Cadigan.

Well, if you look at the two tape sample----

Mr. Dulles.

This tape sample on upper left hand is covered up by this one. I wonder whether you shouldn't take out the later one?

Mr. Cadigan.

Yes; I think probably that would be better.

Mr. Eisenberg.

Why don't you show Mr. Dulles the paper bag, 142, and the sample obtained November 22?

Mr. Dulles.

Yes; those are the two we are most interested in.

Mr. Cadigan.

The observation I would make there is that the color of the tape on Exhibit 142, the sack, and the color of the paper of the sack 142, under UV, is the same as the color of the tape on 677 and the color of the paper.

Mr. Dulles.

I agree on that.

Mr. Eisenberg.

Let the record show that Mr. Dulles makes the statement as he is looking in the machine. Mr. Cadigan, why don't you compare it----

Mr. Cadigan.

By comparison----

Mr. Dulles.

This is only as to color, that is all I saw. I saw some markings on it.

Mr. Cadigan.

That is right. This is only for color appearance under the ultraviolet light.

Mr. Eisenberg.

Why don't you compare the sack found at the TSBD and the replica sack obtained 10 days later?

Mr. Cadigan.

Here again all that should be observed is the color under UV of both the paper and tape of the sample and the paper and tape of Exhibit 364.

Mr. Dulles.

364 is the paper bag, isn't it?

Mr. Cadigan.

364 is the replica sack obtained on December 1.

Mr. Eisenberg.

Ten days later.

Mr. Dulles.

That is on the left?

Mr. Cadigan.

Yes.

Mr. Dulles.

And the other is the sack?

Mr. Cadigan.

No; the other on your right is the sample of paper obtained on November 22.

Mr. Dulles.

November 22, Just after the assassination?

Mr. Cadigan.

Yes,

Mr. Dulles.

There is a clear distinction here. The sample to the right, that is, as I understand it, paper obtained on the evening of November 22, has a more, a deeper violet shade, and on the other hand, the tape is much lighter than the tape on the sample obtained 10 days later. That is to say that the sample 16 days later is darker as to the tape but lighter as to the paper. Would you like the opportunity, Mr. Murray?

Mr. Murray.

No, thank you.