Mr. Curry.

want a white or marked car there bringing up the rear," so Fritz and his men were not in the motorcade.

Mr. Dulles.

What do you mean in the past when there have been previous Presidents visiting Dallas or other dignitaries?

Mr. Curry.

Yes; that is right; other dignitaries. Yes; our thinking along this was that in the past there have been this. Captain Fritz, he is a very experienced homicide man so are his detectives. They know the city very well. They have been there very, Captain Fritz to my knowledge, over 40 years.
It is customary that they in trying to protect a person if they are in the immediate vicinity, and Captain Fritz told me later, he said, "I believe that had we been there we might possibly have got that man before he got out of that building or we would have maybe had the opportunity of firing at him while he was still firing" because they were equipped, would have been equipped with high-powered rifles and machineguns, submachine guns.

Representative Ford.

Where were they instead of being at the motorcade.

Mr. Curry.

Actually they were not in the motorcade at all. They followed up the motorcade.

Representative Ford.

Were they in a car following up the motorcade?

Mr. Curry.

Yes, sir; they were in a car.

Representative Ford.

How far away would they have been?

Mr. Curry.

I think they would have been at the rear, I believe.

Representative Ford.

Captain Fritz is going to be here later.

Mr. Rankin.

Yes.

Representative Ford.

And fill in what he did at that time?

Mr. Rankin.

Yes.

Mr. Curry.

But we tried to do what the Secret Service asked us to do, and we didn't try to override them because we didn't feel it was our responsibility, that it was their responsibility to tell us what they wanted and we would try to provide it.

Mr. Rankin.

Did you refuse to do anything that they asked you to do?

Mr. Curry.

No, sir; not to my knowledge we don't--we didn't refuse them to do anything.

Mr. Dulles.

You considered them to be the boss in this particular situation?

Mr. Curry.

Yes, sir; the Secret Service; yes, sir.

Mr. Rankin.

Do you know or can you tell us approximately where the President's car was at the time of the first shot that you heard?

Mr. Curry.

To the best of my knowledge, I would say it was approximately halfway between Houston Street and the underpass, which would be, I would say probably 125-150 feet west of Houston Street.

Mr. Rankin.

Can you give us the approximate location of where it was when you heard the second shot?

Mr. Curry.

Well, it would have been just a few feet further because these shots were in fairly rapid succession.

Mr. Rankin.

How many feet do you mean?

Mr. Curry.

I would say perhaps, and this is Just an estimate on my part, perhaps 25 or 30 feet further along.

Mr. Rankin.

Then at the time of the third shot?

Mr. Curry.

A few feet further, perhaps 15-20 feet further.

Mr. Rankin.

Do you have an opinion as to the time that expired between the first shot and the third shot?

Mr. Curry.

This is just an opinion on my part but I would think perhaps 5 or 6 seconds.

Mr. Rankin.

Did you hear any more than three shots?

Mr. Curry.

No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Rankin.

Are you sure of that?

Mr. Curry.

I am positive of that. I heard three shots. I will never forget it.

Mr. Rankin.

Do you have something, Mr. McCloy?

Mr. Mccloy.

I was going to ask you, chief, as you were approaching the underpass you were looking toward the underpass presumably?

Mr. Curry.

That is right.

Mr. Mccloy.

Was the underpass bare of people or were there people on it?

Mr. Curry.

No; I could see some people on each side but not immediately over,