Mr. Simmons.

convenient means--not more convenient, but a more permanent means of correction.

Mr. Eisenberg.

By azimuth, do you refer to the crosshair which is sometimes referred to as the windage crosshair?

Mr. Simmons.

Yes.

Mr. Eisenberg.

Would you recognize these shims that I display to you, Mr. Simmons, as being the shims that were placed in the weapon?

Mr. Simmons.

I saw the shims only when they were in the weapon, but those look very much like what was evident from the external view, after they were in place.

Mr. Eisenberg.

For the record, Mr. Chairman, these shims were given to me by the FBI who told me that they had removed them from the weapon after they had been placed there by Mr. Simmons' laboratory. May I have these introduced as evidence?

Mr. Mccloy.

Yes.

Mr. Eisenberg.

Mr. Simmons, I find there are three shims here. You mentioned two. Would three be consistent with what you were told?

Mr. Simmons.

I was told two. These were put in by a gunsmith in one of our machine shops-- rather a machinist in one of our machine shops.

Mr. Eisenberg.

Mr. Simmons, I wonder whether you could take these shims back after I have marked them to find out whether the three had been placed?

Mr. Simmons.

Yes.

Mr. Eisenberg.

I am marking these 576, 577, and 578. They consist of three shims in three small envelopes.
(The items referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 576, 577, and 578, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Eisenberg.

Mr. Simmons, did you have a test run to determine the possibility of scoring hits with this weapon, Exhibit 139, on a given target at a given distance under rapid fire conditions?

Mr. Simmons.

Yes; we did. We placed three targets, which were head and shoulder silhouettes, at distances of 175 feet, 240 feet, and 265 feet, and these distances are slant ranges from the window ledge of a tower which is about 30 feet high. We used three firers in an attempt to obtain hits on all three targets within as short a time interval as possible.
I should make one comment here relative to the angular displacement of the targets. We did not reproduce these angles exactly from the map which we had been given because the conditions in the field were a little awkward for this. But the distance--the angular distance from the first target to the second was greater than from the second to the third, which would tend to correspond to a longer interval of time between the first and second impact than between the second and the third. The movement of the rifle was greater from the first to the second target than from the second to the third.

Mr. Eisenberg.

Mr. Simmons, were your marksmen instructed to aim at the three targets in consecutive order?

Mr. Simmons.

The marksmen were instructed to take as much time as they desired at the first target, and then to fire--at the first target, being at 175 feet--to then fire at the target emplaced at 240 feet, and then at the one at 265 feet.

Mr. Eisenberg.

Can you state where you derived these distances?

Mr. Simmons.

These distances were the values given on the survey map which were given to us.

Mr. Eisenberg.

Are you sure they were not the values I gave to you myself?

Mr. Simmons.

I stand corrected. These are values--we were informed that the numbers on the survey map were possibly in error. The distances are very close, however.

Mr. Eisenberg.

For the record, the figures which I gave Mr. Simmons are approximations and are not to be taken as the Commission's conclusive determination of what those distances are.

Mr. Simmons.

For our experiment, I do not see how a difference of a few feet would make any difference.

Mr. Eisenberg.

Now, Mr. Simmons, did you take pictures or have pictures taken showing what that range looked like?