Mr. Eisenberg.

Yes. There will be testimony elicited at another time on those examinations, Mr. Frazier.

Mr. Mccloy.

Mr. Frazier will be a witness in those, too?

Mr. Eisenberg.

Yes, sir.
Mr. Specter will probably elicit that testimony.
Mr. Chairman, or gentlemen, are there any other questions? Thank you very much, Mr. Frazier.

Mr. Frazier.

Excuse me. I have one photograph here that might be useful in this regard, and that is of a clip showing the six cartridges loaded into it.

Mr. Mccloy.

I think that might be a good idea. You might identify that, to show what we mean by clips.

Mr. Eisenberg.

You have shown us photographs of a clip--the clip from the Exhibit 139 rifle?

Mr. Frazier.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Eisenberg.

One photograph loaded, and one unloaded?

Mr. Frazier.

Yes. In one instance I put six cartridges in the clip and photographed it.

Mr. Eisenberg.

Did you take those photographs?

Mr. Frazier.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Mccloy.

Mr. Frazier, you testified that if you didn't use the clip you would only be able to shoot one shell at a time, is that right?

Mr. Frazier.

Yes, sir; this weapon does not have the box magazine commonly found in most military weapons which holds the cartridges and can be re-loaded one at a time, but they must remain in the clip, or they will malfunction. The follower in the weapon will throw the cartridges right back out of the gun.

Mr. Mccloy.

That explains it to my mind, because I know I have fired rifles with clips and fired them without clips. But they were much more convenient in loading.

Mr. Frazier.

Yes, sir; this one is designed--

Mr. Mccloy.

For example, the Springfield you could load with clip or load without a clip.

Mr. Frazier.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Mccloy.

But this one has to have a clip in order not to malfunction?

Mr. Frazier.

Yes, it does.

Mr. Eisenberg.

Those will be 574 and 575.

Mr. Mccloy.

They may be admitted.
(The photographs referred to were marked Commission Exhibits No. 574 and 575, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Mccloy.

Thank you very much, Mr. Frazier. You have been very helpful.
Ronald Simmons

Testimony of Ronald Simmons

Mr. Eisenberg.

Our next witness will be Mr. Simmons.

Mr. Mccloy.

Would you hold up your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give in this hearing will he the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SIMMONS. I do.

Mr. Mccloy.

Please be seated.
This, as you know--the constitution of the Commission and its purpose--we want to ask you something about the firearm aspect of our hearings, and certain characteristics of this rifle that we would like to hear from you about, and if there is anything else you have that can throw light on our problems. If you can state for the record, first, your name, and where you live.

Mr. Simmons.

My name is Ronald Simmons. I live near Havre de Grace, Md.

Mr. Mccloy.

Mr. Eisenberg?

Mr. Eisenberg.

Can you give us your position, Mr. Simmons?
Mr. SIMMONS. I am the Chief of the Infantry Weapons Evaluation Branch of the Ballistics Research Laboratory of the Department of the Army.

Mr. Eisenberg.

And how long have you held this position?

Mr. Simmons.

This position, about four years, and previous employment has been in these laboratories.