Mr. Ball.

When you were brought to the first floor or when you came to the first floor how did you go down there?

Mr. Norman.

We came down the stairway. I remember we came down the stairway.

Mr. Ball.

When you got to the first floor did someone talk to you, police officers?

Mr. Norman.

I don't remember a police officer talking to me as soon as we got down there. I don't.

Mr. Ball.

Did anyone talk to you later?

Mr. Norman.

Yes.

Mr. Ball.

Who?

Mr. Norman.

I guess they were Secret Service men. But I know they talked to us.

Mr. Ball.

Did they take you over to the police station later?

Mr. Norman.

No; they didn't carry me to the police station.

Mr. Ball.

When did you leave the place?

Mr. Norman.

Oh, I would say somewhere around 2 o'clock, somewhere in the vicinity of that.

Mr. Ball.

Who did you leave with?

Mr. Norman.

Mr. James Jarman. I can't remember who.

Mr. Ball.

From the time that you went down on the first floor until you left the building to go home did you leave the building at all?

Mr. Norman.

No; I didn't.

Mr. Ball.

Where did you stay?

Mr. Norman.

They kept us on the first floor.

Mr. Ball.

You did make a statement later to the Secret Service, didn't you?

Mr. Norman.

Yes.

Mr. Ball.

I have here a document 493, which is a copy of a statement made by this witness, which I now mark 493.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 493, for identification.)

Mr. Ball.

The document that I have here shows the date 4th of December 1963. Do you remember having made a statement to Mr. Carter, Special Agent of the Secret Service, on that day?

Mr. Norman.

I can't remember the exact date but I believe I remember Mr. Carter.

Mr. Ball.

I want to call your attention to one part of the statement and I will ask you if you told him that:
"Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I could also hear the bolt action of the rifle. I also saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me."
Did you make that statement to the Secret Service man?

Mr. Norman.

I don't remember making a statement that I knew the shots came from directly above us. I didn't make that statement. And I don't remember saying I heard several seconds later. I merely told him that I heard three shots because I didn't have any idea what time it was.

Mr. Ball.

I see. Did you tell them that you heard the bolt action of the rifle?

Mr. Norman.

Yes.

Mr. Ball.

And that you heard the expended cartridges fall to the floor?

Mr. Norman.

Yes; I heard them making a sound.

Mr. Ball.

I would like to offer this into evidence.

Mr. Mccloy.

It may be admitted.
(The document referred to, heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit No. 493 for identification, was received in evidence. )

Mr. Mccloy.

You used the expression you heard the ejection. This refers to the bolt action?

Mr. Norman.

Yes.