Mr. Mccloy.

How many shots did you hear fired?

Mr. Williams.

I heard three shots. But at first I told the FBI I only heard two--they took me down- -because I was excited, and I couldn't remember too well. But later on, as everything began to die down, I got my memory even a little better than on the 22d, I remembered three shots, because there was a pause between the first two shots. There was two real quick. There was three shots.

Mr. Ball.

Did you hear anything upstairs at all?

Mr. Williams.

No, sir; I didn't hear anything.

Mr. Ball.

Any footsteps?

Mr. Williams.

No, sir. Probably the reason we didn't hear anything is because, you know, after the shots we were running, too, and that was making a louder noise.

Mr. Ball.

You really ran?

Mr. Williams.

Yes, sir; we ran. And that was probably making a lot of noise.

Mr. Ball.

Now, I'm going to hold this up. I don't know whether everybody can see it or not--

Mr. Dulles.

Could I ask one question in connection with your last question?
Did you hear either of the elevators going up or down while you were eating your meal?

Mr. Williams.

No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Dulles.

You didn't hear the elevators at all?

Mr. Williams.

No, sir.

Mr. Dulles.

If an elevator had come to that floor, would you have heard it then?

Mr. Williams.

That all depends--

Mr. Dulles.

Were they noisy elevators? The operation of the doors and so forth?

Mr. Williams.

Yes, sir. The elevator that I came up on to the sixth floor, if you would listen--say you were listening for the boss, you could hear, because you would be paying attention. The elevator is worked by hand pedal. When you release the hand pedal it makes a noise. It bangs or maybe you can hear the old elevator when it is first coming up. But at that time I did not hear anything.
(At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.)

Mr. Ball.

I would like to point out over in the northwest corner there is a stairwell. And the elevators are shown here. And the witness has placed himself at point "Z" on Exhibit 487, which is near a pair of west windows. Now, you are oriented there, are you not?

Mr. Williams.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball.

All right. When you were at "Z" were you able to see the stairwell?

Mr. Williams.

No, sir.

Mr. Ball.

Why?

Mr. Williams.

You could not see the stairs from that point because this other--this is the stairway, and it has some shelves made out of some old wooden boxes. Those old wooden boxes come out to about right here. And they come out maybe 5 feet, even more than that, past the stairway. And that would block your view of the stairway from that point.

Mr. Ball.

Mark it in there with your pencil.

Mr. Williams.

These are the stairs. I would say the bookcase would come out like that.

Mr. Ball.

The shelf we will mark "WX", both ends of the shelf. How high is the shelf?

Mr. Williams.

Pretty high.

Mr. Ball.

Does it go to the ceiling?

Mr. Williams.

As I remember, they do not go exactly to the ceiling. But I am 6 feet, and they are way over me, I think.

Mr. Ball.

Now, could you see all of the elevators from there?

Mr. Williams.

Well, by me being the tallest, I saw --