Mr. Williams.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball.

Well, did Norman say anything about hearing the bolt of the rifle?

Mr. Williams.

I don't remember him saying anything about it.

Mr. Ball.

But you heard him say he could hear the cartridges?

Mr. Williams.

I heard Harold Norman--pardon me, I thought you were saying James Jarman.

Mr. Ball.

Did Norman say anything about the bolt?

Mr. Williams.

Yes. He said he could hear the rifle, and it sounded like it was right above. He said he could hear the rifle being ejected, the shells hitting the floor.

Mr. Ball.

But you could not hear this?

Mr. Williams.

No; I could not hear it.

Mr. Ball.

That was an old floor, wasn't it?

Mr. Williams.

Yes; it was.

Mr. Ball.

Could you see light through the floor from the fifth to the sixth floor as you would look above your window?

Mr. Williams.

Well, at the time, that day of November 22d, I did not notice that. But the other day when you were questioning me, even after the thick new floor that was put over the old floor on the sixth floor, well, you still could see light. And the new floor extended a little beyond the old floor. So therefore I would say that you could see light much more when the old floor was there.

Mr. Ball.

When you were there the other day, you looked up through a crack in the ceiling of the fifth floor?

Mr. Williams.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball.

Could you see the new floor?

Mr. Williams.

You could. You could see daylight through.

Mr. Ball.

Now, where was that crack with reference to the wall of the fifth floor?

Mr. Williams.

With reference to the wall of the fifth floor, the crack that speaking about was directly over my head, and also directly over Norman's head.

Mr. Ball.

And that would be where the floor would ordinarily make a joint with the wall?

Mr. Williams.

With the wall.

Mr. Ball.

You say you ran down to the west window.

Mr. Williams.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball.

From where you were?

Mr. Williams.

Yes, sir. First of all----

Mr. Ball.

I will take this same diagram----

Mr. Williams.

First of all we made a stop before we got to the last stop that we was when the policeman came up.

Mr. Ball.

Yes. That is where I want you to show me now, where you made the stop. This is the fifth floor diagram.
We will mark the fifth floor diagram as Exhibit 487.
(The document so described was marked Commission Exhibit No. 487 for identification.

Mr. Ball.

This is Elm Street on 487, and here are the windows where you have shown us you were standing.

Mr. Williams.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball.

Now, will you show us the direction that you ran and also point to the window?

Mr. Williams.

The direction that we ran after we heard the shots was--I would say I was in about this position here, this window. And we left like this. Harold was coming from here.

Mr. Ball.

Let me show you the diagram. Here are these two pair of windows that are shown here on this diagram. This is the corner. Here is the next window, and here is the next window.
Now, take the pencil and show where you were and where you ran to.

Mr. Williams.

I was right here.

Mr. Ball.

Mark an X, and bring it on down, and show us.