Mr. Specter.

When did you first notice the substance which you have described as body matter?

Mr. Kellerman.

When I got to the hospital, sir, it was all over my coat.

Mr. Specter.

Did you notice it flying past you at any time prior to your arrival at the hospital?

Mr. Kellerman.

Yes; I know there was something in the air.

Mr. Specter.

When, in relation to the shots, Mr. Kellerman, did you notice the substance in the air?

Mr. Kellerman.

Fine. When I have given the orders to Mr. Lawson, this is when it all came between the driver and myself.

Mr. Specter.

Can you describe what it was in a little more detail as it appeared to you at that time?

Mr. Kellerman.

This is a rather poor comparison, but let's say you take a little handful of matter--I am going to use sawdust for want of a better item--and just throw it.

Mr. Specter.

Can you describe the sound of the flurry of shots by way of distinction with the way you have described the sound of the first shot?

Mr. Kellerman.

Well, having heard all types of guns fired, most of them, rather, if I recall correctly these were two sharp reports, sir. Again, I am going to refer to it as like a plane going through a sound barrier; bang, bang.

Mr. Specter.

Now, you are referring to the flurry?

Mr. Kellerman.

That is right.

Mr. Specter.

Did it sound differently from the first noise you have described as being a firecracker?

Mr. Kellerman.

Yes; definitely; very much so.

Representative Ford.

Was there any other noise going on at the time of the second and third shots different from the noise of the crowd or otherwise at the time of the first shot?

Mr. Kellerman.

We had no crowd, sir. There was nothing there.

Representative Ford.

So the external noise was identical as far as the--

Mr. Kellerman.

Very much.

Representative Ford.

First or second or the third shot?

Mr. Kellerman.

Yes, sir. We are in an open-field area, so to speak, and everything was just clear.

Representative Ford.

So there was no other sound that would have disturbed your hearing capability from the first through the third shot?

Mr. Kellerman.

That is right; no other shot.

Representative Ford.

Your only problem would be your personal activity after the first shot.

Mr. Kellerman.

Correct.

Representative Ford.

Your activity of speaking to Greer and talking to Lawson?

Mr. Kellerman.

That is correct, sir; yes, sir.

Representative Ford.

Was there any crowd reaction?

Mr. Kellerman.

There was no crowd.

Representative Ford.

There were a few stragglers?

Mr. Kellerman.

A handful, and I didn't view any reaction, sir.

Representative Ford.

All right.

Mr. Specter.

Mr. Kellerman, you said earlier that there were at least two additional shots. Is there any area in your mind or possibility, as you recollect that situation, that there could have been more than two shots, or are you able to say with any certainty?

Mr. Kellerman.

I am going to say that I have, from the firecracker report and the two other shots that I know, those were three shots. But, Mr. Specter, if President Kennedy had from all reports four wounds, Governor Connally three, there have got to be more than three shots, gentlemen.
Senator COOPER. What is that answer? What did he say?

Mr. Specter.

Will you repeat that, Mr. Kellerman?

Mr. Kellerman.

President Kennedy had four wounds, two in the head and shoulder and the neck. Governor Connally, from our reports, had three. There have got to be more than three shots.

Representative Ford.

Is that why you have described--