Mr. Griffin.

person? Or was the confusion so great and things moving so quickly you couldn't really distinguish?

Mr. Kantor.

It was one man definitely saying, "You son of a bitch."

Mr. Griffin.

That is your memory?

Mr. Kantor.

Yes.

Mr. Griffin.

Now, I think you also indicated that you heard somebody yell "Jack". Do you have any recollection of that now? Somebody saying "Jack".

Mr. Kantor.

I am not as positive about that.

Mr. Griffin.

All right.

Mr. Kantor.

Upon talking with Combest upstairs, he told me, he told two or three reporters there that that was what was said, and I used that in my story.

Mr. Griffin.

Now, tell us what you saw happen after you saw Ruby down on the floor.

Mr. Kantor.

Well, when the shot was fired, and I was still watching Oswald, and heard him groan, and slump---watched him slump. For no good reason at all, I moved in his direction. A man standing next to me from the Dallas Times Herald, a reporter, moved with me. There was a car located approximately right in front of us as we moved. Then we saw a detective come bounding over the roof of the car and onto the hood and landing here, just in front of this melee.

Mr. Griffin.

Where you marked the X on the map?

Mr. Kantor.

That is correct.

Mr. Griffin.

Who was that officer?

Mr. Kantor.

I believe it was Detective Captain Jones.

Mr. Griffin.

And then what did you see happen?

Mr. Kantor.

I became painfully aware as I moved into this area which was becoming very crowded and there was a lot of shoving and pushing going on--there was a man down on the pavement, and I could not see who it was. I heard one of the detectives, and I believe it was Captain Jones, holier up to a police officer standing here something to the effect that--shoot the first man who tries to move out, or something like that. And I saw this officer swivel around, pointing his revolver down into the ramp. And I became painfully aware that we were all going to get shot and killed in another moment or two, and I tried to back off this way. And the reporter from the Dallas Times Herald, Bob Fenley, knew one of the detectives in this area, as Ruby was being dragged off towards the jail office. The detective was weeping, for one reason or another. And we were being pushed back. However, Fenley crouched down low and moved towards his friend and asked him a question, and came back and said to me very clearly, "The man who shot Oswald is named Jack Ruby." And I was surprised that Bob apparently didn't know Jack Ruby, because I thought everybody on the paper knew Jack.

Mr. Griffin.

What did you do at that point?

Mr. Kantor.

I was mightily surprised and could not believe what I had heard for a moment. And then I asked Bob if he knew Jack, and he said no. I felt that--I guess my inclinations were as a newspaperman, and I felt I wanted to get to Ruby as fast as possible and question him. And I tried to get through to the jail office area, but there was no chance. We were held there until Oswald was placed in the ambulance right in front of where we were standing, and taken out. Then we were allowed to proceed up to the third floor, and there we waited for close to 2 hours outside of Curry's office without any word of any sort.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you interview anybody in the 2 hours that you were standing outside of Curry's office?

Mr. Kantor.

Yes; I spoke to Billy Combest.

Mr. Griffin.

Anybody else?

Mr. Kantor.

I spoke to another police officer--I don't recall his name--who had been down there.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you hear any rumors while you were standing outside of Curry's office as to how Ruby had gotten into the basement?

Mr. Kantor.

No; there was no speculation. I do recall some conversation among reporters who had seen him on Friday night at the assembly room, when I had not seen him. And I was surprised to learn that Ruby had been there at all.