Mrs. Carlin.

have said. It's just the things that have been put in my mind that leave doubt there.

Mr. Hubert.

Well, aside from what other people have told you or what you read in the paper, do you have anything that you can tell us that you know yourself that would lead you to form the conclusion that there was a connection between them ?

Mr. Carlin.

No.; nothing that I saw or nothing that I heard, or anyone I saw even was there that I could hear talking, or anything--no. It's been so long ago I can't remember very much any more.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall that during the course of the Ruby trial when you were waiting to testify that there was a jail break there and some people got out of the jail, and I think they passed right near by you, I believe?

Mrs. Carlin.

Yes.

Mr. Hubert.

Do you remember what you screamed or said?

Mrs. Carlin.

"Oh, my God, they're after me."

Mrs. Hubert.

Yes what made you believe that "they" were after you ?

Mrs. Carlin.

Because I was scared I was going to get killed before I ever got court.

Mr. Hubert.

Who do you think was going to kill you?

Mrs. Carlin.

I don't know exactly who or why. I just felt that I was going to get killed.

Mr. Hubert.

Well, who did you mean by "they," when you said "they" were after

Mrs. Carlin.

Well, there was a man that was running after me there was two of them, and I saw some kind of little weapon, it looked like, but I don't remember very much.

Mr. Hubert.

So, when you used the word "they," you meant those people there who were escaping ?

Mrs. Carlin.

Yes.

Mr. Hubert.

You didn't have in mind some other group of people who were after you?

Mrs. Carlin.

No---well, it all goes back to where I used to work. I had already been threatened by Pat Kirkwood and I didn't know they were escaping from the jail when I saw them.

Mr. Hubert.

Who is Pat Kirkwood

Mrs. Carlin.

He owns the Cellar and I had already been threatened by him. My life had been threatened by him.

Mr. Hubert.

Why did he do that?

Mrs. Carlin.

Well, it was--he had some publicity people down there--- television and cameras and so on, and we never got along too well because I told the police, the vice squad about him and identified some policemen that were being paid off by him and everything, and of course, he had so many friends he got out of it real easy, but then he hated me for what I had done.

Mr. Hubert.

Was that before the President was shot?

Mrs. Carlin.

Yes, that was before, and so after the President was shot, he found out what was going on and he called me on the telephone, and he says, "I want you down here in about 20 minute," and I said, "Kirkwood, I don't want to have anything to do with you or your plans, just leave me alone."

Mr. Hubert.

That was after Oswald was shot?

Mrs. Carlin.

Yes; after I went to court that first time, the bond hearing, I believe.

Mr. Hubert.

Yes.

Mrs. Carlin.

After I went to court, he says, "I want you down here" and I said, "Well, I'm not coming down." He called me back in about 20 minutes and he said, "Why aren't you down here ?" He said, "I'll send a cab up after you."

Mr. Hubert.

Where were you

Mrs. Carlin.

I was at home in bed, I wasn't feeling too good, and my husband was out working. So, right after he called me---I was still on the telephone, and my husband walked in, and he had just finished saying, "If you're not down here, you won't be around too long," and then my husband walked in and let him have the telephone and they talked then.

Mr. Hubert.

What did your husband say?