Mr. Hubert.

Is it a fact, of course, that the report on the President's death

came after the report of the shooting of Tippit?

Mr. Saunders.

Right.

Mr. Hubert.

So you would think that Ruby was gone when the announcement of the President's death was made?

Mr. Saunders.

Right--to my knowledge.

Mr. Hubert.

Now, I noticed that in your statement which has been identified as Exhibit No. 1, you have made some remarks concerning your knowledge of Jack Ruby and his striving for recognition and his desire to do the right things and his respect for authority, and so forth. Can you give us some examples that would illustrate these characteristics?

Mr. Saunders.

Well, Jack was always hovering around people in the newspaper business for some reason.
If myself or another salesman showed up at one of his clubs, it was almost the red-carpet treatment, which as advertising salesmen, we have no way to help him. We felt it was possibly a case of just wanting to be around newspaper people.
I know for a fact that Ruby quite often talked of knowing this police officer or that official in a bragging type manner.

Mr. Hubert.

Sort of a name-dropping situation ?

Mr. Saunders.

Sort of a name-dropping situation.

Mr. Hubert.

And that was consistent, and for a long time?

Mr. Saunders.

Right--as long as I knew him, and at any time that he could be around anyone that had a name, regardless of what position, whether it be in the entertainment business, whether it be a columnist, or whether it be a city official.

Mr. Hubert.

Did you see a specific example of that? If you could give us some specific examples, it would be helpful.

Mr. Saunders.

Oh, just quoting a specific example, with names---it's been so long ago that I would hate to hazard a guess. It would just be a guess on my part.

Mr. Hubert.

What about his desire to do the right thing, which you recognize as a characteristic of this man, can you give me any examples of that?

Mr. Saunders.

Well, from the time I first knew him, he always wanted to, and in conversations with him about his business, which was normal in our contact, he would want to strive to make his club better than the next club, so to speak, and he would constantly point out areas where if there was any rowdiness or loud, drunkenness-type parties in his club, he would throw them out.

Mr. Hubert.

You have seen it happen?

Mr. Saunders.

I've seen it happen, and not 3 weeks before the assassination--a Mr. Donald Campbell and myself, another advertising salesman, had visited for the first time his club.

Mr. Hubert.

The Carousel Club?

Mr. Saunders.

His Club Carousel, and at the time we were there, again it was very much the red-carpet treatment, wanting to know our opinions on his acts, and apologizing if the emcee had corny jokes, but he was working hard, and he had nothing but good things to say about most people, and the evening we were there there was a customer who had gotten a little out of hand, certainly nothing that you won't see in any nightclub, and right away Jack Ruby took offense at it and told the person to leave and threw him out.

Mr. Hubert.

Did he use force to do so?

Mr. Saunders.

No; he just went over and very pointedly told the man "This is not allowed in this club. Will you get up and leave right now--out. We don't want you around".

Mr. Hubert.

And the man left?

Mr. Saunders.

And the man left. As far as seeing him use force, I have never seen him use force. I have heard that he did on occasion use force, however, it was suprising to me because I never thought of Jack Ruby as being one who could physically or being physically capable of using force. However, I was evidently mistaken on that point.