Mr. Hubert.

In other words, when the car passed, you were not aware that there had been some shots?

Mr. Saunders.

No.

Mr. Hubert.

And it was only then when you heard it over the radio, I suppose, that you knew it?

Mr. Saunders.

Well, at that moment as the car went by, there were two, possibly three, cars came by a few moments later--not necessarily in a close group, but they came filtering through each in a high rate of speed.

Mr. Hubert.

How far were you away from the Presidential car ?

Mr. Saunders.

Oh, 25 feet--two lanes of traffic. Mr. HUBERT. Where was your car parked ?

Mr. Saunders.

On the center median of Stemmons Expressway at the railroad overpass, approximately 100 yards west of the triple underpass. There is a bisecting rail line there.

Mr. Hubert.

You were standing beside your car?

Mr. Saunders.

Right.

Mr. Hubert.

Was there a police motorcycle there?

Mr. Saunders.

There were several police motorcycles there purportedly to stop traffic on Stemmons as the Presidential motorcade came through.

Mr. Hubert.

How far were you from the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. Saunders.

Oh, roughly 150 yards--100 to 150 yards.

Mr. Hubert.

When you heard the news over the radio, the police radio, what did you do?

Mr. Saunders.

I got back in my car.

Mr. Hubert.

Were you alone?

Mr. Saunders.

I was alone; yes. I was headed to the building, to my office, at the time I stopped there.

Mr. Hubert.

What route did you take to go from the place you were parked there to your office building?

Mr. Saunders.

I took the cloverleaf off of Stemmons, which was another 200 yards south and turned back up Commerce Street and went through the triple underpass up to Young Street and turned--I mean--to Houston Street, and turned right on Houston Street down to Young Street, and my office is at that corner.

Mr. Hubert.

Did you park your car in the street?

Mr. Saunders.

No; I parked it in our parking stall at the rear of the building.

Mr. Hubert.

Then you walked up to your office?

Mr. Saunders.

Right.

Mr. Hubert.

Can you give us now an estimate of the time it took you from the time the Presidential car passed by you with everybody stooped down in it until you got to your office on the second floor?

Mr. Saunders.

Approximately 10 minutes--I would estimate.

Mr. Hubert.

Have you checked whether that can be done in 10 minutes ?

Mr. Saunders.

Oh, yes; it can be done in much less than 10 minutes; however, with the general confusion around the area, the traffic was somewhat stacked up and after waiting for a couple of lights to get to the office, which I had to pass by--yes.

Mr. Hubert.

When you got to your office, did you see Jack Ruby ?

Mr. Saunders.

I went directly to my office and as I walked into the office there were several salesmen in the office at the time, as is normal for noon deadlines on Friday, and I walked over to my desk and at that time Jack Ruby was standing beside my desk, or standing at my desk. He was not seated there.

Mr. Hubert.

Did you engage him in conversation in any way?

Mr. Saunders.

I spoke to him--this is a rather heated time of day any Friday in our business, particularly in my own instance, and I was dubious as to where we might stand as far as publication of the paper, due to the events that had just transpired, and I spoke to Jack--I had called on him previously. I had known him for 6 or 7 years, and I spoke to him, and each of us in the office were conversing to one another, and when I spoke to Jack he was very obviously