Mr. Kleinman.

Pretty close.

Mr. Griffin.

Do you recall when it was that you first met Jack Ruby?

Mr. Kleinman.

Well, I really don't recall when or how I met him, but I guess its been maybe 12 or 13 or maybe less, somewhere in there.

Mr. Griffin.

Did there come a time when you began to do accounting work for him?

Mr. Kleinman.

Well, I have. I did accounting work for him. He wanted me to work out his corporation returns for the State and the Federal, but I have never been able to complete it for him.

Mr. Griffin.

When was it that he asked you to do that?

Mr. Kleinman.

It was sometime in 1962, the latter part of 1962.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you ever do any work for him before that?

Mr. Kleinman.

Yes. I checked some records for him with the Internal Revenue. I don't recall when.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you know him on a social basis between the time you first met him?

Mr. Kleinman.

Not socially. I would know him like you meet anyone and know him, as an acquaintance.

Mr. Griffin.

Where would you meet him?

Mr. Kleinman.

Oh, sometimes I would run into him downtown. And while I was doing work for him, he would come by the office, and I would have to go by his place of business on Commerce Street to the Carousel.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you visit the Carousel Club from time to time?

Mr. Kleinman.

Well, I had visited there a number of times maybe around the latter part of the month to bring him some reports to sign, or get the social security withheld, or get his tax reports out.

Mr. Griffin.

Did Jack bring any records to you on a monthly basis?

Mr. Kleinman.

He was supposed to. He brought quite a few records. There was a lot of records missing that he brought up later. We were trying to accumulate all the records to work up his report.

Mr. Griffin.

Were you able to tell from an examination of the records that he did bring you whether or not the Carousel Club was a profitable operation?

Mr. Kleinman.

Well from the looks of it, it didn't look like it was too profitable, as far as I could tell. Of course, I never did get the final, get to make a final.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you have any indication that he was actually losing money?

Mr. Kleinman.

Well, at times he said it was losing money.

Mr. Griffin.

Did the records substantiate that?

Mr. Kleinman.

Well, that I couldn't say because I didn't have all the records, all of his paid receipts. And over a period of 6 or 8 months, why he would find additional receipts and bring to me.

Mr. Griffin.

Receipts meaning?

Mr. Kleinman.

Paid bills such as for merchandise.

Mr. Griffin.

If there were any missing, that would only reduce his profit?

Mr. Kleinman.

If it were missing, it would increase his profit, because it wouldn't be charged off.

Mr. Griffin.

Well, you mean for tax purposes?

Mr. Kleinman.

Oh, yes.

Mr. Griffin.

I was thinking of for straight business accounting whether you could tell from the records whether he had a net profit after everything was taken off.

Mr. Kleinman.

It is hard to say in that business because you would have to take in a certain amount of money. You don't know whether you have a profit or loss until you bring in all of your expenditures, your entertaining help and other help that he might have.

Mr. Griffin.

On the basis though of what he did bring in to you, did he show a net profit?

Mr. Kleinman.

Well, I didn't get that far on it, because there was a lot of information that he had there that I couldn't identify readily, and I had to get him to explain some of the transactions.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you ever have occasion to discuss with Jack his religious beliefs?